The downfall of Western European T&F

[Flumpy]

Germany had an atrocious games, but it's peaks and troughs - I'm sure they'll come back again another year and win medals in the womens JT (again), the mens and womens SP, the mens PV...

I think events where Germany has a strong tradition, like the technical throwing events, have seen countries like Belarus overtake them.

Why have you changed your name again? :?

[az2004]

in the usa, t&f fans tend to be older...

is this true too in western europe, or does the generation gap NOT exist

[mark]

I had no idea of Prokhorova ever having tested +ve until German Wikipedia threw this up IAAF News July 25th 2006.

Any ideas what it was for ?

[eldrick]

Most of the successful "early" Africans were for the most part coached by Europeans and/or used European methods

it's been mentioned abebe's coach was european, however, greatest kenyan of them all - keino, i'm not sure about

i know about his dayjob - he used to combine policeman duties with training & there was no coach around him during his normal weekdays as he had to work & train at same time, often many miles from civilisation out in the bush - he was given leeway to train more & do less policework, but he had to do some, otherwise no pay

he obviously had a coach during training camps for the big games, but i'm pretty certain he had no one to keep an eye on him during all the hard training he did as backbone of his preparation

[Madd Marine]

Most of the successful "early" Africans were for the most part coached by Europeans and/or used European methods

it's been mentioned abebe's coach was european, however, greatest kenyan of them all - keino, i'm not sure about

i know about his dayjob - he used to combine policeman duties with training & there was no coach around him during his normal weekdays as he had to work & train at same time, often many miles from civilisation out in the bush - he was given leeway to train more & do less policework, but he had to do some, otherwise no pay

he obviously had a coach during training camps for the big games, but i'm pretty certain he had no one to keep an eye on him during all the hard training he did as backbone of his preparation

I believe Kip said he picked up training info from some British runners and coaches in Kenya and then learned more once he was good enough to go abroad. I think Velzian was helping him also (I have an article somewhere, I'll dig it up at some point). Keino has done some great work helping out children in Kenya over the years. He seems to be a big-hearted man. Has he been advising Kiprop? Someone told me that, but I don't know if that's true.

[eldrick]

thanks, any info woud be appreciated

my dad was his police boss for a few years & i got it from him that there was no coach around for long periods, certainly whilst doing his day job ( don't know about evenings/weekends ) - kip was cut little slack apart from extra chickens "to keep his strength up" & some time-off during day to go run

he passed on a long time ago & i never asked him about kip, just what came up casually - i kick myself for not asking him properly :cry:

[Madd Marine]

That's interesting Eldrick. I didn't know you were Kenyan (I joined the board a few weeks ago).

[eldrick]

unfortunately not been back in past 20y :cry:

it's not as friendly as inviting as the '60s kenya ( i'm told - too young to remember )

[Sinafan]

Did DLV decide they were not going to win medals on the track and start to invest in field events only?

These thoughts are in fact in the mind of the sport ministry though the DLV doesn't think it a good idea. We have a certain amount of good track athletes (Unger, Schielke, Sailer, Schlangen, Möldner, Mockenhaupt, Blaschek, Nytra, Tilgner) who are however unlikely to make the TOP 8 in Berlin. Bolm's entry on her homepage after her last injury reads like a farewell and Marx' 400mH glory lasted only a year, she startet at the NC barely fit in order to qualify for the relay.
The relays naturally can only be finalists under these circumstances, not really medal candidates. The female sprint relay is nearest, but they need Schielke badly, not only for the additional tenths, but also for a bit more fighting spirit. It's awfully frustrating to see and read the interviews with the girls who are very happy and so on instead of being frustrated that they had the big chance to snatch a medal with a minimum improvement over their season PB.

BTW, Hentschke has retired.

[Jon]

Germany had an atrocious games, but it's peaks and troughs - I'm sure they'll come back again another year and win medals in the womens JT (again), the mens and womens SP, the mens PV...

I think events where Germany has a strong tradition, like the technical throwing events, have seen countries like Belarus overtake them.

Why have you changed your name again? :?

Because he was banned.

[EPelle]

Twice?

[Jaack]

Twice?

Over at Iaaf I started life as:
Jack

which then became

Jackk

which then became

Jaack

which then became

Jaaack

You really weren't allowed to say a bad word about Thanou and Marion! :cry: :idea:

[kamikaze7]

Madd Marine wrote
Many people also point out the sudden surge in fast times by the Africans with certain individuals with apparently shady pasts and shadier character getting involved coincided with the arrival of EPO etc but that's for another thread or board.

MM
I am curious about this. If this is one of the reasons holding western European runners back, it ought to be discussed. Who are these shady runners using EPO ?

[lalala]

Don't stress TOO much about Mary Onyali...it was an ephedrine "3 month" positive in the days before the public warning system

[Madd Marine]

Madd Marine wrote
Many people also point out the sudden surge in fast times by the Africans with certain individuals with apparently shady pasts and shadier character getting involved coincided with the arrival of EPO etc but that's for another thread or board.

MM
I am curious about this. If this is one of the reasons holding western European runners back, it ought to be discussed. Who are these shady runners using EPO ?

I was remarking on the shady people behind some of the runners, but that's for another thread or PM's. I do think that their doping of some of their stable of runners back in the day helped hasten the European indifference toward distance running (the records were 'out there' quickly) and it's spiraled somewhat into a situation that now presents Africans running relatively unchallenged by others, so it isn't drugs per se today. As good as some of the runners you see today are, how do you think the finalists in the 800/1500 would have done against some of the greats from 20 - 25 years ago? Do you think Viren might be just a bit faster on a Mondo track running against these guys? Mottram is the only Euro type capable of sub 13? There isn't at least one guy in the US with the inborn talent to run as fast as Bob Kennedy? Alan Webb has talent, but is either a head case or his coach has absolutely no ability to prepare him for big races - or maybe it's both. But is he really the only guy in the US with the genetic make-up to run 1:43 in the 800 and 3:46 in the mile?

I have to wonder how much is mental. I brought up boxing previously. For a few decades it was dominated by inner city blacks from the US, but in ten years it's changed so completely that the US media chooses to ignore it or present it in such a way as to make people think nothing has changed. But the fact is that from 150 lbs on down Hispanic fighters have completely taken over, and from 150 lbs on up the sport is dominated by Europeans, with E. Europeans dominating the heavyweight division. The whole point is that it was a very fast change. So despite the arrogance of some thinking that no area of sport can or will change from what you see today, I just shrug my shoulders and wait to see what will happen. Boxing may swing back to where it was before, distance running may become popular in Europe again, and you'll see runners out there giving the Africans a run for their money, who knows? Personally I agree with others I have spoken with who think that if the interest in the 800/1500 in the US and Europe rivaled that seen in Morocco etc. those distances would be dominated by Europeans. I think the Africans would still have a high percentage of the top runners in the 5/10 but they wouldn't be holding near 100% of the slots like they do now, maybe more like 70%.

It's more of a lack of interest and low numbers of participants than drugs that have caused distance running in Europe to tail off, but I personally feel that drugs helped get the lack of interest going. The lack of interest in the sport is of course affecting other events. I hope this trend eventually reverses itself.