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The state of U.S. women's 800 running


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  • #46
    No. She:s mastered the art of running the middle 400m (200m-600m) in/around 57 seconds, as she did in Beijing as well. When other fast 800m runners get their bodies to learn this, they:ll have greater improvement opportunities as well. Whether they capitalise on them is another story, depending on their base and ability to withstand the greater lactacte which occurs with splitting hard in the middle of a two-lap sprint race.

    Soboleva, for whatever it is worth, has employed this same tactic to near perfection.


    • #47
      Originally posted by EPelle
      When other fast 800m runners get their bodies to learn this, they:ll have greater improvement opportunities as well. Whether they capitalise on them is another story, .
      Right, so even though the GDR machine couldnt break K's WR, and since no Russian has come close, and none of the experienced talents like Mutola and Quirot could run sub 1:54, it's perfectly normal for an 18 yr old novice to come out and run 1:54.0, due a simple explanation of running tactic/ability?

      Whatever!! :roll:


      • #48
        Running tactics, ability, training, teammate/training partner (Jepkosgei), mentors and a whole lot of luck and opportunity.

        Means, motive, opportunity.


        • #49
          Originally posted by EPelle
          No. She:s mastered the art of running the middle 400m (200m-600m) in/around 57 seconds, as she did in Beijing as well
          that looks a spurious stat

          the real key is to maintain well between 400 - 600m off an optimal 400m split & then hang on for 600 - 800

          time-immemorial, 800's are supposedly run optimally off 1.5 - 2s splits, so splits to aim for

          1'55 are 56.5/58.5 to 56.75/58.25

          1'54 are 56.0/58.0 to 56.25/57.75

          in order to do this, pamela needs to follow the wabbit to the bell & get there in something around 56+, done efficiently

          the 200 - 400 part of the 200 - 600 stat is simply a by-product of following a good wabbit to the bell in ~56s rather than making a conscious effort to make some surge between 200 - 400 per se

          as for soby, her 2 best times are 1'54.85 & 1'55.7, so only 1 time in pamela's current class & not much data to work with - i assume she too was also just trying to get to the bell in about 56


          • #50
            Soboleva didn:t get to the bell in the Russian Champs by following a rabbit or hitting the 400m split in an optimal pace. She deliberately hit that middle 400m hard - just like she did indoors. She split 56,31 at her outdoor champs between 200m and 600m in the 1.54,85 -- similar tactic she employed at WIC.

            The kicker with Soboleva? She didn:t expect to run 1.54, but a 1.56! That:s how I know she drove that middle 400m hard; she did the same indoors.

            Jelimo has been enjoying a similar success with the middle portion of the race. I:ve made several comments on this over the past seven-eight weeks.


            • #51
              & you've got far more mileage out of it than it's worth...

              if anyone bothered with a stopwatch & looked at the track markings, they coud claim it was the 50 - 450m section or the 100m - 500m section or the 271.28m - 671.28m section or the 300 - 700m section or the 350 - 750m section, ad infinitum, etc

              only thing worth mentioning with her run is that she had no wabbit & had to run it all the way

              men's races are easier to illustrate with & we see countless attempts at fast times past 30y

              invariably they aim for 50-flat at the bell, with hope they get a 2s differential & end up with a 1'42, but 90%+ fizzle out to 1'43/1'44

              virtually all have a rabbit taking them to 400m, taking the hard work out of the 200 - 400 section of the 200 - 600 overall

              the greats like coe/kipketer got there in 50-flat ( usually a bit better ) with aid of wabbit & then, in their fast runs maintained to 600 & reached it in 75 & held on as well as possible for 1'41/1'42 whereas the majority of the other guys fizzled out to 77/78s & then produced what they coud in stretch for 1'43/1'44

              vast majority of fast times in history on men & women's side ( apart from soby's 1 run ) have had the wabbit doing the hard work in the 200 - 400 section & the guy behind getting an advantage thru drafting

              the 200 - 600 split isn't the significant one - a good wabbit will always take them thru in 50-flat & take care of 200 - 400 section, it's the 400 - 600 one which gives chance of the fast time


              • #52
                Gosh, if I would have known that running hard from 600m to 800m was the key, I could have run faster that 1.47. Dumb me for trying the same and following my trainer:s philosophy, namely that 800m running is a two-beast race: 4x200m - which are their own splits entirely; and an opening 200m, a closing 200m and a 400m in the middle.



                • #53
                  well, likes of kip/coe have shown that key to running 1'41 is to run to 600 as evenly as possible in about 75s, which necessitates 3 previous 200m segments of as close to 25s/piece & not worry about splitting it into an initial 200 & then a 400 block, & then these 2 hold on for as well as possible in 600 - 800 section

                  send my regards to your coach, but i'll stick to what kip/coe have demonstrated on the track to millions of fans


                  • #54
                    Alas, the original context in which that was spoken was about USA women being unable to put in the requisite hard splits in the middle of the races in order ot stay fleet afoot. The 2007 WC w-800m placers all had excellent middle splits in a rabbit-less race, dvs from 200m to 600m.

                    I thought Kipketer hit 23-low in one of those 1.41 races.


                    • #55
                      you're the only one mentioning hard 200 - 600 splits or obsessed by them

                      ruth, marine nor anyone else has mentioned them here


                      • #56
                        kip may have gone 23 in his 1'41.24 but that was out of sheer desperation in trying to keep up with a crazy wabbit who went thru in 48.1 dragging kip thru in 48.3


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Powell
                          Originally posted by rasb
                          Yes, I was in Helsinki. In the Village, and on the training and warmup tracks, and in the Stadium of course.
                          Something very unnatural took place there.

                          And whoever the "vulgar punk" that brought Mutola's name into this discussion should be ashamed of him or her self.
                          And WHY exactly is it OK to question Kratochvilova's sex, but not Mutola's?
                          Excuse me? I've never questioned either.


                          • #58
                            The top-three placers in the 2007 WC each were able to run under 60,00 in the middle of a rabbit-less race. No one else was. Some went out faster and died a horrible death down the straight-away. American women, of whom this topic is about - as well as was another one several weeks back - were discussed with respect to their current state of events both foreign and domestic. A point which was made - from observation of splits, not fiction - were that the top runners who win medals are the ones whose middle 400m splits are at/near 59s, and who are able to maintain a form of "kick". It:s a rule of thumb; American women have not been agressive enough to attempt to run the hell out of an 800m race, not simply contest it.

                            Soboleva has done the same in two championships: World Indoors; Russian Outdoors.


                            • #59
                              All I know about running 800 meters is that my one experimental competition at that distance was the most exhausting experience I have ever had.
                              But, isn't it possible that Jelimo, like Bolt, is simply blessed with superior physical abilities?


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by lonewolf
                                But, isn't it possible that Jelimo, like Bolt, is simply blessed with superior physical abilities?
                                That's my take, lonewolf. And when you combine that with smart tactics, you get the 3rd fastest 800 ever run. And with more experience and a rabbit (although a rabbit could only take her through the 400, not 600- same problem Bekele has with no rabbits being fast enough for 2/3rd of the race at his pace for the entire thing) I see the WR going down.
                                "Long may you run"- Neil Young