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The state of U.S. women's 800 running

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  • Daisy
    replied
    Re: some 400 runners should convert

    Originally posted by williamwindhamjr
    Some of the usa top 400 runners are good here,but internationally average,but if they took that 400 speed and got a little strength behind them,then you have a great 800 maybe even 1500 runner.
    Steve Ovett springs to mind. He started as a sprinter.

    [edit]

    Not sure how I missed this thread first time around but given what I just wrote above I found the follow from tandfman amusing.

    Originally posted by tandfman
    If you think that 800/1500 types can't excel at the shorter distance, I would cite Coe, Ovett, Holmes, Masterkova, and Kazankina as evidence that you don't have to be a 400 runner moving up to win Olympic medals at 800m.
    Although i then found that Mad Marine was taking my stance.
    Originally posted by Madd Marine
    Btw, didn't Coe start out as a 3k runner and move down? Ovett was a great 400 prospect who was so freakishly strong he moved up, but I was under the impression it was the opposite for Coe.
    As to sex
    Originally posted by Ruth Wysocki
    I don't know what the current protocol is, but in 1984, we had to undergo gender testing before the Olympics. It was the cotton swab sample from the inside of the cheek. I actually have a card proving that I am a female. I don't know how much longer this practice went on, but I do know that in my day, we had to prove we were female.
    Due to Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) they no longer use the chromosome test alone to disqualify female athletes. This was covered fairly well in a recent thread when the Indian athlete Santhi Soundarajan was stripped of her silver medal from the Asian games.
    http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... hp?t=23363

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  • EPelle
    replied
    Natalya Lavshuk, the rabbit, did (55,43). Cherkasova was hot on her heels through that first lap. Clark passed 400m with the Russian trio (I believe just off the pace).

    Andrianova breezed past Cherkasova coming off the curve. Kotlyarova passed her as well down the straight.

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  • CookyMonzta
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon
    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
    How did I miss that 1:57.99 from Hazel Clark? Where did she run that, and when?
    Bislett Games, Olso, 2005.
    Got it. Three Russians (Andrianova 1:56.91, Kotlyarova 1:57.55 and Cherkasova 1:57.86) all finished ahead of her in that race, and Klyuka (1:58.44) rounded out the sub-2:00s. I don't remember that race, but I'd bet Hazel led at the 400 mark.

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  • Jon
    replied
    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
    How did I miss that 1:57.99 from Hazel Clark? Where did she run that, and when?
    Bislett Games, Olso, 2005.

    Leave a comment:


  • CookyMonzta
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon
    She ran 1:57.99 in 2005.
    That answers one-half of my question.

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  • CookyMonzta
    replied
    How did I miss that 1:57.99 from Hazel Clark? Where did she run that, and when?

    Leave a comment:


  • Matt
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon
    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
    EPelle got me on my statement that 1:58 and 1:59 don't cut it. But I must stand by that statement because I was actually referring to the biggest of the big ones; namely, the World and Olympic 800s.
    You have a fair point there. When you look at the start list for the 2008 Olympic final, the slowest PB of the bunch was 1:57.88 and the slowest SB was 1:58.24 (both belonging to Kenia Sinclair):
    Athlete SB/PB
    Maria de Lurdes Mutola 1:57.68/1:55.19
    Kenia Sinclair 1:58.24/1:57.88
    Pamela Jelimo 1:54.87/1:54.87
    Tatyana Andrianova 1:56.00/1:56.00
    Svetlana Klyuka 1:56.64/1:56.64
    Janeth Jepkosgei 1:56.07/1:56.04
    Hasna Benhassi 1:56.73/1:56.43
    Yuliya Krevsun 1:57.32/1:57.32

    Similar story at Osaka (slowest PB/SB was 1:58.41/1:58.63):
    Svetlana Klyuka 1:58.63/1:57.21
    Brigita Langerholc 1:58.41/1:58.41
    Janeth Jepkosgei 1:56.04/1:56.04
    Sviatlana Usovich 1:58.11/1:58.11
    Hasna Benhassi 1:56.84/1:56.43
    Maria de Lurdes Mutola 1:56.98/1:55.19
    Olga Kotlyarova 1:58.14/1:57.24
    Mayte Martínez 1:57.62/1:57.62

    PBs of Helsinki finalists:
    Hasna Benhassi 1:56.43
    Maria de Lurdes Mutola 1:55.19
    Zulia Calatayud 1:56.09
    Svetlana Cherkasova 1:56.93
    Tatyana Andrianova 1:56.07
    Larisa Chzhao 1:57.33
    Mayte Martínez 1:57.62
    Hazel Clark 1:57.99

    PBs of Athens finalists:
    Maria Cioncan 1:59.44
    Jearl Miles Clark 1:56.40
    Kelly Holmes 1:56.21
    Jolanda Ceplak 1:55.19
    Maria de Lurdes Mutola 1:55.19
    Tatyana Andrianova 1:56.07
    Hasna Benhassi 1:56.43
    Zulia Calatayud 1:56.09

    Leading up to Beijing, I thought Marilyn Okoro (who had been 'cutting it' on the GP circuit with her 1:58s and 1:59s) would have a chance of making the final. When she didn't, at first I was a bit disappointed. But when I looked at the startlist it was clear that she was simply outclassed by better athletes.

    On the circuit, you can run all the 1:58s and 1:59s you like, but if you've not broken into 1:57/1:56 territory, then you'll need to have a lot of luck on your side to qualify for major championship finals.
    Very interesting statistics. I too was disappointed about Okoro but looking at this, less so.

    I still think that Lyne has the best chance/most talent of the GB girls.

    Odd to think that Gallagher with her Seoul bronze became the first double medallist over 800m at the time (since equalled by Holmes, Mutola, Quirot and Benhassi).

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  • EPelle
    replied
    Most can't, save US-trained Langerholc (who hasn't been US-based for a few years now).

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  • mump boy
    replied
    it's all very well running 1.58/9 in a 1 off grand prix but can they run it 3 days in a row to qualify for a major final !??!

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon
    replied
    Originally posted by EPelle
    Originally posted by Jon
    On the circuit, you can run all the 1:58s and 1:59s you like, but if you've not broken into 1:57/1:56 territory, then you'll need to have a lot of luck on your side to qualify for major championship finals.
    Nevertheless, the 1.58-1.59 types stand a decent chance of sticking with the majority of GP leaders from start to finish.
    Definitely. My post was solely referring to sticking with the leaders at major champs.

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  • Powell
    replied
    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
    If I must say so, even Alice Schmidt could possibly give the Jelimo maneuver a try. She has the height (5-11).
    What does height have to do with pacing?

    Leave a comment:


  • EPelle
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon
    On the circuit, you can run all the 1:58s and 1:59s you like, but if you've not broken into 1:57/1:56 territory, then you'll need to have a lot of luck on your side to qualify for major championship finals.
    Nevertheless, the 1.58-1.59 types stand a decent chance of sticking with the majority of GP leaders from start to finish. The importance is three-fold: 1) They gain a non-false confidence they can run with those athletes, this despite the finishing times, which are often in their range of ability; 2) They gain a belief they can improve as those clusters of athletes improve; 3) They can - and do - earn GP points (as evidenced above, including Okoro) and opportunities into meets to sustain an income.

    Pushing that middle 400m - a point I made about US 800m runners earlier - will enable them to jump up to the next level. That they are unable to do so, another valid point made germane to this discussion, demonstrates why US athletes lag behind. CookyMonzta's thought process follows a similar pattern.

    edited parenthesis.

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  • Jon
    replied
    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
    Hazel Clark is 32, no? What is her PR? I do remember watching her post a 1:58 96, but that was way back in 2000. Or did I miss something?
    She ran 1:57.99 in 2005.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon
    replied
    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
    EPelle got me on my statement that 1:58 and 1:59 don't cut it. But I must stand by that statement because I was actually referring to the biggest of the big ones; namely, the World and Olympic 800s.
    You have a fair point there. When you look at the start list for the 2008 Olympic final, the slowest PB of the bunch was 1:57.88 and the slowest SB was 1:58.24 (both belonging to Kenia Sinclair):
    Athlete SB/PB
    Maria de Lurdes Mutola 1:57.68/1:55.19
    Kenia Sinclair 1:58.24/1:57.88
    Pamela Jelimo 1:54.87/1:54.87
    Tatyana Andrianova 1:56.00/1:56.00
    Svetlana Klyuka 1:56.64/1:56.64
    Janeth Jepkosgei 1:56.07/1:56.04
    Hasna Benhassi 1:56.73/1:56.43
    Yuliya Krevsun 1:57.32/1:57.32

    Similar story at Osaka (slowest PB/SB was 1:58.41/1:58.63):
    Svetlana Klyuka 1:58.63/1:57.21
    Brigita Langerholc 1:58.41/1:58.41
    Janeth Jepkosgei 1:56.04/1:56.04
    Sviatlana Usovich 1:58.11/1:58.11
    Hasna Benhassi 1:56.84/1:56.43
    Maria de Lurdes Mutola 1:56.98/1:55.19
    Olga Kotlyarova 1:58.14/1:57.24
    Mayte Martínez 1:57.62/1:57.62

    PBs of Helsinki finalists:
    Hasna Benhassi 1:56.43
    Maria de Lurdes Mutola 1:55.19
    Zulia Calatayud 1:56.09
    Svetlana Cherkasova 1:56.93
    Tatyana Andrianova 1:56.07
    Larisa Chzhao 1:57.33
    Mayte Martínez 1:57.62
    Hazel Clark 1:57.99

    PBs of Athens finalists:
    Maria Cioncan 1:59.44
    Jearl Miles Clark 1:56.40
    Kelly Holmes 1:56.21
    Jolanda Ceplak 1:55.19
    Maria de Lurdes Mutola 1:55.19
    Tatyana Andrianova 1:56.07
    Hasna Benhassi 1:56.43
    Zulia Calatayud 1:56.09

    Leading up to Beijing, I thought Marilyn Okoro (who had been 'cutting it' on the GP circuit with her 1:58s and 1:59s) would have a chance of making the final. When she didn't, at first I was a bit disappointed. But when I looked at the startlist it was clear that she was simply outclassed by better athletes.

    On the circuit, you can run all the 1:58s and 1:59s you like, but if you've not broken into 1:57/1:56 territory, then you'll need to have a lot of luck on your side to qualify for major championship finals.

    Leave a comment:


  • eldrick
    replied
    believe you me : keino didn't mean a word of it

    he knew he was damn special !

    there may have been other good runners at home, but none for a decade++ who coud run 3'34.9 at that altitude or a 7'39wr on dirt

    in fact, next kenyan to come after him who i think couda run 3'34.9 at that altitude was probably komen - 28y later

    & next kenyan who couda run 7'39 on dirt was probably rono, 13y after keino ( albeit jipcho theoretically couda done it in his '74 form over 1500/5k )

    Leave a comment:

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