Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

[nmzoo]

An examination of the all-time list for the women’s shot put reveals the following (this is from a list maintained by Peter Larsson with 531 entries going down to 20.75m/68’-3/4” and excludes indoor marks and 2nd/3rd etc. best marks from the same series):

The women’s world record at the present time is 22.63m/74’7-3/4” by Natalya Lisovskaya (RUS) set in 1987 (21 years ago). The American record is 20.18m/66’2.5” by Ramona Pagel set in 1988.
There have been only 10 additions to the top 337 on the list since 1990.
You have to go down the list to #331 to find a mark from 2008 (21.98m/68’9.5”).
Only one other 2008 put (20.90m/68’6”) even makes the top 531 at #397.
There are only 4 throws since 1990 which rank in the top 240 of all time.
There have been only 25 marks since 1990 which rank in the top 531 of all time, and 9 of those were by Chinese women throwing in China.
Except for Germany and 1 Cuban, there are no non-Asians in the top 531 marks of all time.
The 2008 Olympics were won with a put of 20.56m {67’5.25”), a throw more than 6’ under the world record and which would rank somewhere around 800th to 900th on the all-time list.
91% of the entries on the list are either from USSR, (including its satellites), Germany (including GDR) or Czechoslovakia. Of the remainder, most are from Bulgaria.

My solution - Increase the weight of the shot 10g and start over!

[ShaunP]

Two Words.....

ORAL TURINABOL


Much greater effect on Women than Men!

ShaunP

[Marlow]

Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

My solution - Increase the weight of the shot 10g and start over!

That's called 'giving in to the b*stards'. Plus, it's assuming something not yet in evidence. Eventually, the natural progression of the event will sweep over the old marks and the victory will be twice as sweet.

[catson52]

Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

My solution - Increase the weight of the shot 10g and start over!

That's called 'giving in to the b*stards'. Plus, it's assuming something not yet in evidence. Eventually, the natural progression of the event will sweep over the old marks and the victory will be twice as sweet.

I like nmzoo's suggestion. A neat way of sidestepping a problem raised by the fact that the "obvious" cannot be proved in a court of law. As for waiting until natural progression sweeps over the old marks (down to say performance 350 on the list), by then, most of us who now participate in these discussions, will have had an encounter with the Grim Reaper.

[Frans Rutten]

Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

An examination of the all-time list for the women’s shot put reveals the following (this is from a list maintained by Peter Larsson with 531 entries going down to 20.75m/68’-3/4” and excludes indoor marks and 2nd/3rd etc. best marks from the same series):

The women’s world record at the present time is 22.63m/74’7-3/4” by Natalya Lisovskaya (RUS) set in 1987 (21 years ago). The American record is 20.18m/66’2.5” by Ramona Pagel set in 1988.
There have been only 10 additions to the top 337 on the list since 1990.
You have to go down the list to #331 to find a mark from 2008 (21.98m/68’9.5”).
Only one other 2008 put (20.90m/68’6”) even makes the top 531 at #397.
There are only 4 throws since 1990 which rank in the top 240 of all time.
There have been only 25 marks since 1990 which rank in the top 531 of all time, and 9 of those were by Chinese women throwing in China.
Except for Germany and 1 Cuban, there are no non-Asians in the top 531 marks of all time.
The 2008 Olympics were won with a put of 20.56m {67’5.25”), a throw more than 6’ under the world record and which would rank somewhere around 800th to 900th on the all-time list.
91% of the entries on the list are either from USSR, (including its satellites), Germany (including GDR) or Czechoslovakia. Of the remainder, most are from Bulgaria.

My solution - Increase the weight of the shot 10g and start over!

If you got time to spare you could easily produce similar lists on discus throw, javelin throw, even high jump and long jump. Sprints although not so harsh. Middle distances.

[nmzoo]

Actually I am planning on doing some other events, even some men's, but I thought the women's shot would be one of the more striking examples.

As for natural progression overcoming the list, it is certainly trending in the wrong direction right now, and I can't imagine a 6-7 foot improvement in performances even in this century, which ought to catch most of us meeting up with the grim reaper.

It's not like similar "rules" changes have not caused many prior performances (fiberglass poles, HJ changes, hurdle changes, and most notably javelin) to lose their proper place in history, although not for the reason(s) I am suggesting.

[catson52]

Actually I am planning on doing some other events, even some men's, but I thought the women's shot would be one of the more striking examples.

As for natural progression overcoming the list, it is certainly trending in the wrong direction right now, and I can't imagine a 6-7 foot improvement in performances even in this century, which ought to catch most of us meeting up with the grim reaper.

It's not like similar "rules" changes have not caused many prior performances (fiberglass poles, HJ changes, hurdle changes, and most notably javelin) to lose their proper place in history, although not for the reason(s) I am suggesting.

I would be interested in what it shows for other events. And nmzoo is absolutely correct re the javelin throws. The discus, hammer throw and shot put can "easily be resolved" by changes in the implement. But what about the rest of the women's events, sprints, middle and long distances, and some others?

[RMc]

Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

An examination of the all-time list for the women’s shot put reveals the following (this is from a list maintained by Peter Larsson with 531 entries going down to 20.75m/68’-3/4” and excludes indoor marks and 2nd/3rd etc. best marks from the same series):

The women’s world record at the present time is 22.63m/74’7-3/4” by Natalya Lisovskaya (RUS) set in 1987 (21 years ago). The American record is 20.18m/66’2.5” by Ramona Pagel set in 1988.
There have been only 10 additions to the top 337 on the list since 1990.
You have to go down the list to #331 to find a mark from 2008 (21.98m/68’9.5”).
Only one other 2008 put (20.90m/68’6”) even makes the top 531 at #397.
There are only 4 throws since 1990 which rank in the top 240 of all time.
There have been only 25 marks since 1990 which rank in the top 531 of all time, and 9 of those were by Chinese women throwing in China.
Except for Germany and 1 Cuban, there are no non-Asians in the top 531 marks of all time.
The 2008 Olympics were won with a put of 20.56m {67’5.25”), a throw more than 6’ under the world record and which would rank somewhere around 800th to 900th on the all-time list.
91% of the entries on the list are either from USSR, (including its satellites), Germany (including GDR) or Czechoslovakia. Of the remainder, most are from Bulgaria.

My solution - Increase the weight of the shot 10g and start over!

I made this observation (and on other events as well) as an indicator that drug testing is actually taking a bite out of illegal use.

[gh]

Took a huge bite out as soon as random testing began almost 20 years ago... hence the calls for new WRs at the millennium (whichever version you subscribe to) when it was already so obvious what had happened.

[imaginative]

Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

I made this observation (and on other events as well) as an indicator that drug testing is actually taking a bite out of illegal use.

It probably is; however, I suspect that two other, related, factors are in
play:

1. Almost all women like to look good, and many dislike ``unfeminine''
activities. Given an entirely free choice (unlike at least some instances in
the old EE), comparatively few women interested in athletics would be pick the
shot put, and fewer yet would be willing to put on large amounts of muscle and
fat. The average female sprint/jumper is very sexy, the average shot putter is
not.

2. At least the DDR (possibly other EE nations too) had programs in place to
identify potential athletes (in the broader sense) and put them in the right
sport/event. This disproportionally increased the probability of 6' women
ending up as throwers, and probably pushed up the performance level.

(Does anyone have data on the heights of the throwers of old? This could be an
interesting check of 2.)

[gh]

Average height of the 10 World Rankers for the '88 season was 1.81... average height for last year's was.. 1.81! (1.813 vs 1.806 to be precise, but for all intents and purposes, the same) That's 5-11¼ in English by the way.

What you did have in the '88 sampling was far greater uniformity. Tallest then was 1.88, shortest was 1.76. Last year we had a 1.93 and a 1.90 on the top end, but also a 1.73 on the bottom.

[nmzoo]

GH wrote-
"Took a huge bite out as soon as random testing began almost 20 years ago... hence the calls for new WRs at the millennium (whichever version you subscribe to) when it was already so obvious what had happened."

I have advocated this several times in the past. Do we really want a sport in which some records are 100-150 years old? And not only that, if and when some of these records are broken (especially on the women's side) what will be the first suspicion? You got it!

[NormZylstra]

Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

My solution - Increase the weight of the shot 10g and start over!

When the implement weights are changed I'd rather see a drop in weight ... down to 3kg (or 2.5kg) for the juniors and 3.5kg for the seniors.

How heavy would a boy's shot have to be for the top HS throw in the US to be 52 feet (usually the top girl's throw)? Around 9-11kg? The women's shot puts are too heavy.

[nmzoo]

Unfortunately ,if all you do is decrease the weight, then all of the throws with the heavier shot would still be legal unless other specs were also changed, such as max/min diameter in order to exclude the older, heavier shots.

[Marlow]

GH wrote-
"Took a huge bite out as soon as random testing began almost 20 years ago... hence the calls for new WRs at the millennium (whichever version you subscribe to) when it was already so obvious what had happened."

I have advocated this several times in the past. Do we really want a sport in which some records are 100-150 years old? And not only that, if and when some of these records are broken (especially on the women's side) what will be the first suspicion? You got it!

If and when you can prove that our sport is 100% clean, then you may restart the record book. The Grim Reaper will have all our great-grand-children before that happens.