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Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

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  • #46
    I see nothing remotely humorous about this. Perhaps you should take it more seriously also.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by gh
      Perhaps you should take it more seriously also.
      That our sport has much credibility at all right now? My only alternatives are to laugh ruefully or weep inconsolably. I am sick at heart at the laughing stock we have become. Really. Fortunately my reality is closer to the bottom end of the scale where the likelihood of cheating approacheth zero.

      The sport I love is in ruins. Reinventing fake World Records is not exactly the fix I was hoping for.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by gh
        We'll not be getting into names here.
        Possibly, I am overlooking something here, but is not ``athlete xxx
        was a cheater'' a lesser crime than e.g. ``all pre-2000 WR holders are
        cheaters''? The contrary would be a bit like ``It is forbidden to kill
        individual bald eagles, but feel free to polute the entire species out
        of existence.''.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

          Originally posted by bushop
          Originally posted by Omega4ul
          Originally posted by bushop
          Originally posted by nmzoo
          My solution - Increase the weight of the shot 10g and start over!
          When the implement weights are changed I'd rather see a drop in weight ... down to 3kg (or 2.5kg) for the juniors and 3.5kg for the seniors.

          How heavy would a boy's shot have to be for the top HS throw in the US to be 52 feet (usually the top girl's throw)? Around 9-11kg? The women's shot puts are too heavy.
          I think it is time to change the weight!
          4K for High School and Juniors
          4.5 or 5 K for the Pros
          We all know that the old records were acheived during a dishonest period. Lets start fresh and add a little excitement to the event!
          Let's not let records and all-time list dictate the parameters of the event (the NBA certainly doesn't, 3-pointers). The lighter implements will allow more participation. I don't care what any records are ... the female shot is too heavy ... it pushes too many youngsters out of the event.
          Are you serious? The women's shot is way too light. It is even more disproportionate than the hurdles. It should go to 5 kg.
          "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
          by Thomas Henry Huxley

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Marlow
            Originally posted by gh
            Perhaps you should take it more seriously also.
            That our sport has much credibility at all right now? My only alternatives are to laugh ruefully or weep inconsolably. I am sick at heart at the laughing stock we have become. Really. Fortunately my reality is closer to the bottom end of the scale where the likelihood of cheating approacheth zero.

            The sport I love is in ruins. Reinventing fake World Records is not exactly the fix I was hoping for.
            Let me just take the kind way out of this and say that a significant number of people with reams of international experience regards how the sport works and is perceived think this is an option that requires seriosu consideration.

            The one-time hiccup when the records were "recast" might be notable, but man has a short memory, and the longterm fallout, IMHO, would be minimal. Far less than every 4 years, like clockwork, having a set of patently illegal WRs trumpeted to billions of Olympic TV viewers.

            There is no good solution; record alteration is the better of the two options.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by gh
              Let me just take the kind way out of this
              Thanks!

              Originally posted by gh
              a significant number of people with reams of international experience regards how the sport works and is perceived think this is an option that requires seriosu consideration.
              I believe you, and I am so crazy I actually think they have no perspective on the issue, because they are TOO close to it. I am often cast here as the know-nothing outsider who has the unmitigated gall to question the status quo (guilty on all charges), but that is precisely how I know (feel) that this is a horrendously inadvisable idea. I take tandfman's agreement as acknowledgment that even some people who 'should know better' feel the same way.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

                Originally posted by Pego
                The women's shot is way too light. It is even more disproportionate than the hurdles. It should go to 5 kg.
                How do you figger that when they are NOT throwing it as far as the men??!! The best men are routinely out to 70'. With a 5kg wSP (same as boys HS) , they'd struggle to get 50'

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by gh
                  There is no good solution; record alteration is the better of the two options.
                  At least one better solution comes to my mind: Let's wait until someone breaks the current WR and then we have a new WR. Meanwhile anyone is free to talk about the best performance of the millenium/century/decade/year/month/week/day.

                  There is only one WR: the best performance ever without getting caught. If it is tough to break that is not a problem of the WR holder but a problem of the current athletes.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Marlow
                    Originally posted by Pego
                    The women's shot is way too light. It is
                    even more disproportionate than the hurdles. It should go to 5
                    kg.
                    How do you figger that when they are NOT throwing it as far as the
                    men??!! The best men are routinely out to 70'. With a 5kg wSP (same as
                    boys HS) , they'd struggle to get 50'
                    The actual distance thrown is not really relevant. If it were, we
                    would also have to conclude that female runners run too far, and so
                    on. Other factors are more important, say the risk of injury at a
                    certain weight of implement or the character of the event. (Obviously,
                    the characteristics making a good athlete, training and technique
                    needed, etc., can vary considerably with the weight of the implement.
                    Cf. also the hurdles discussion.)

                    Originally posted by mikli
                    Originally posted by gh
                    There is no good solution; record
                    alteration is the better of the two options.
                    At least one better solution comes to my mind: Let's wait until
                    someone breaks the current WR and then we have a new WR. Meanwhile
                    anyone is free to talk about the best performance of the
                    millenium/century/decade/year/month/week/day.

                    There is only one WR: the best performance ever without getting
                    caught. If it is tough to break that is not a problem of the WR holder
                    but a problem of the current athletes.
                    As I see it, _if_ we do wish to have a new set of records here and now,
                    then an implement change (a la javelin) is necessary. People forget
                    fast, but if the implements are not changed, there will be too many
                    commentators and reporters regularly reminding the public (not to
                    mention the lack of acceptance the new records would have among
                    experts).

                    (Note: Not intendend as an answer to Mikli, just in the same context.)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

                      Originally posted by Marlow
                      Originally posted by Pego
                      The women's shot is way too light. It is even more disproportionate than the hurdles. It should go to 5 kg.
                      How do you figger that when they are NOT throwing it as far as the men??!! The best men are routinely out to 70'. With a 5kg wSP (same as boys HS) , they'd struggle to get 50'
                      Just look how they are throwing it. Like a rock, not putting it. I'll bet you another hot dog in Eugene that big gals like VV, MC would have nearly the same (if not the same) distance with 5 as with 4.
                      "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                      by Thomas Henry Huxley

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

                        Originally posted by Pego
                        Just look how they are throwing it. Like a rock, not putting it. I'll bet you another hot dog in Eugene that big gals like VV, MC would have nearly the same (if not the same) distance with 5 as with 4.
                        To go from an 8.8 lb shot to a 12 lb shot, they'll be MORE inclined to shove it like rock. And I'll leave it to eldrick to explain why an increase of 36% in weight cannot possibly result in similar results. Do you believe the men could throw a 21 lb shot just as far?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Women's Shot - How Far The Mghty Have Fallen!

                          Originally posted by Marlow
                          Originally posted by Pego
                          Just look how they are throwing it. Like a rock, not putting it. I'll bet you another hot dog in Eugene that big gals like VV, MC would have nearly the same (if not the same) distance with 5 as with 4.
                          To go from an 8.8 lb shot to a 12 lb shot, they'll be MORE inclined to shove it like rock. And I'll leave it to eldrick to explain why an increase of 36% in weight cannot possibly result in similar results. Do you believe the men could throw a 21 lb shot just as far?
                          1. No
                          2. No
                          3. No

                          5 kg is 11, not 12 lb. The increase would be 25%.
                          The men's shot weight is just right, increase would push it into a circus stage, slight reduction would not make much difference. Just right .
                          "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                          by Thomas Henry Huxley

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            My bad on 11 vs. 12 lb., but the issue remains. I train our shot putters sometimes and the higher the weight, the less you can get it out on your fingers where it needs to be. An 11 vs. 8.8 shot, 25% heavier, will make the finger/hand snap at the end of the put even more difficult to effectively utilize, making it more like the rock you mentioned.

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                            • #59
                              So one wouldn't expect high schoolers to be throwing the heavier one.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by gh
                                So one wouldn't expect high schoolers to be throwing the heavier one.
                                On average, an elite woman is weaker than a HS boy. The 11-lber will be too heavy for almost all over them. If you're interested in watching elite women shoving the shot 50', then by all means make the switch.

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