so who's No. 1 in the marathon?

[rasb]

The implication that athletes run in the Olympics with no expectation of financial payoff is truly hilarious.

In the professional era, they're ALL professionals. Get real.

Oh, I didn't know they were all professionals --- thanks for the supposed enlightenment, I had no idea....
But, of course, you totally missed my point. The Olympic gold is still the Olympic gold, and the incredible manner in which Wanjiru smashed the record, and the rest of the field, and the environmental conditions, under the expectations of winning the once in every four years festival that is the Olympics, set him on a pedestal far above a time-trial world-record run under near-perfect conditions. That's just my opinion, of course, and of course we will never know what would have transpired if Geb had been in Beijing, but he wasn't...

[tandfman]

Who does number 2 work for?

Am I the only one around here who clicked on that link and didn't see the relevance to this discussion?

[kuha]

The implication that athletes run in the Olympics with no expectation of financial payoff is truly hilarious.

In the professional era, they're ALL professionals. Get real.

Good point.

How much weight do we give Dubai (worlds "richest" marathon) in this debate since dollars obviously matter to some extent. For example, the PGA money leaders list is usually a stat that people pay attention to.

For all those "the-Olympics-is-all-that-matters" folks (and I know there's tons of them), think hard about WHY that is the case. Is it because Baron de Coubertin was such a wonderful guy and a deep thinker? Is it because the Olympics lives up to its own (positively relentless) myth of transcending the messiness of real-world politics? Is it because every gold medalist becomes a hero for the ages, known to all mankind?

No x 3.

There are a few simple reasons for athletes' very real investment in the importance of the Olympics. These include the facts that they are uncommon (every 4 yrs), and that they now (since the 1960s) are the focus of truly blanket world-wide media coverage. Most importantly, however, in recent decades, for marginal sports like t&f, success at the Olympics was seen as the single best path to financial success. Remember the Wheaties box thing?

It is utterly disingenous and beside the point to hold up Olympic ambitions or achievement as somehow "above" the professional desire to earn an honest (or even an extravagant) living.

It's fine to criticize Geb for choosing to skip the marathon in Beijing (although as I said, I applaud his decision). It's wrong to slam him for being money-hungry.

[kuha]

The implication that athletes run in the Olympics with no expectation of financial payoff is truly hilarious.

In the professional era, they're ALL professionals. Get real.

Oh, I didn't know they were all professionals --- thanks for the supposed enlightenment, I had no idea....
But, of course, you totally missed my point. The Olympic gold is still the Olympic gold, and the incredible manner in which Wanjiru smashed the record, and the rest of the field, and the environmental conditions, under the expectations of winning the once in every four years festival that is the Olympics, set him on a pedestal far above a time-trial world-record run under near-perfect conditions. That's just my opinion, of course, and of course we will never know what would have transpired if Geb had been in Beijing, but he wasn't...

Nope. I didn't miss your point at all. We're looking at the same facts and coming to different conclusions. It happens.

[George Matthews]

Just please promise us that the TFN annual rankings panel don't call a tie!

[imaginative]

One of the main issue is exactly how good the time of Wanjiru's
Beijing race, is compared to Geb's WR. (If an ``adjusted'' Beijing was
roughly on par with or better than Berlin, Wanjiru's case would be
improved drastically.)

A few notes:

1. Wanjiru was 52s of his PB/SB.

2. Gharib was 14s (!) of his 2004 PB, and scored his second best SB ever.

3. Ritzenhein was 52s of his 2007 PB, and scored an SB.

4. Several other high placing runners were minutes of their best.

(Data from IAAF.)

Based on this, my first impression is that Beijing was not as hard run as
claimed. Rather, those runners who new how to handle the conditions and hit
the right race (i.e. did not go too fast, too slow, otherwise screw up) landed
times that were not more significantly off their PB/SB than could be expected
of a ``normal conditions'' Marathon. The implication would be that we have no
further information on Wanjiru's true ability than given by his 2:05:24 second
place in London.

The possibility that different runners were naturally affected to different
degrees (cf. the 1500m in Mexico City), and that Warinju belonged to the less
affected, is also worth mentioning.

Now, this was a very superficial investigation. A more thorough one might yield
very different results.

[rasb]

The implication that athletes run in the Olympics with no expectation of financial payoff is truly hilarious.

In the professional era, they're ALL professionals. Get real.

Nope. I didn't miss your point at all. We're looking at the same facts and coming to different conclusions. It happens.

Fair enough --- a little less condescension might help, or not. Who are you voting for

[26mi235]

To say that I was more stunned at the OG marathon than at Berlin today is like saying Bolt ran a good double in Beijing. This was a great race -- Beijing OG Marathon rewrote the whole event for me.

I do not get a vote and it is a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. One thing that works against Geb is that the marathon is now his event and he took a pass at the OGs -- that is tantamount to a loss to me. And, it was probably the deepest marathon ever, not just the deepest OG marathon, with Geb and the 4th+ runners from Kenya missing. I wold vote the OG marathon over Berlin in the POY

[dl]

Wanjiru's performance in Beijing was better than Geb's 2:03:59, IMHO.

[dukehjsteve]

Garry, I believe T&FN has never, ever picked a tie in any event, am I correct ?

[SQUACKEE]

Wanjiru's performance in Beijing was better than Geb's 2:03:59, IMHO.

If it is its very very close.

[joeltetreault]

Historical question: I feel that this scenario (the WR-holder vs. OG champ, both never competed against each other) must have happened before in other events. If so, what were the resulting TFN rankings?

[Brian]

Re: so who's No. 1 in the marathon?

WR vs. Olympic title

No contest.

Competitive Olympic Games win over tough field in record time vs. fast time-trial(s).

No contest!

[Brian]

Re: so who's No. 1 in the marathon?

WR vs. Olympic title

No contest.

Competitive Olympic Games win over tough field in record time vs. fast time-trial(s).

No contest!

...with PACERS!

[croflash]

Why should this be different than other events ? Olympic Gold is what matters this year and you can't punish Wanjiru for not having that duel in Beijing. I think he should be No. 1 since his showings outside of Beijing have been pretty strong too.

Nobody is suggesting "punishing" Wanjiru. Being ranked number 2 in the marathon for the year (if that's what happens) is hardly punishment.

What you're suggesting, by implication, is that we should "punish" Geb for not competing in Beijing, even though he had perfectly good reasons for not doing so. You're furthermore implying that the winner in each event at the Games should be the annual number 1 -- more or less no matter what! That would be a bridge too far, to say the least. Heck, we could just dispense with the annual rankings during Olympic years, right?

The Olympics is what matters the most by far, I didn't say it is all that matters. However, Wanjiru's other races and performances were strong enough to give him the nod over Geb and the WR. As long as someone has an impressive season summary and the Olympic title, you can make a strong case for him, even if someone else set a new WR.