Question about sprint training...

[mopek]

Hi,

I have lurked in this forum for a few months now and have a question for some of the knowledgeable
people in here about "High Intensity Training".

Why is it that a person can train up to 80% of maximum effort with moderate to high volume and recover relatively quickly...

BUT...

When a person does 95% or more - as in 50m repeats or power cleans - his energy is sapped with little volume and it takes a looong time to recover?

What goes on phisiologically?

I remember training with a local track team
for a few months to increase my speed. For the
first two months we did alot of tempo, 80% runs, long hills etc...It was hard and we did get in shape and gain muscle and some speed. But when we started doing speed training. Our workouts turned us into zombies. We looked like we were spaced out and had no energy for days.

thanks in advance.

[tafnut]

Re: Question about sprint training...

That IS a good question. As a track coach I should know the answer, but all I do know is that when you cross the aerobic threshold into anaerobia, the stress to the body's recoverability goes up significantly (lactic acid buildup being one culprit). I will be an attentive reader to the answers that ensue. We need more stuff like this on the board.

[BisonHurdler]

Re: Question about sprint training...

For a preliminary answer to this question, read Charlie Francis's book "Speed Trap" about the Ben Johnson fiasco. Among all the information about the scandal, some interesting training philosophies are brought to light. It's an excellent read for a variety of reasons.

A quick very generic explanation is that it (super high intensity runs, such as a 60m all out) not only taxes the muscles, etc, but it heavily taxes the nervous system structure, which takes approximately 48 hours to recover.

If you are interested in some great insight into the scandal, as well as some very interesting views on sprint training, pick up this book.

[mopek]

Re: Question about sprint training...

Thanks for the suggestion,

But I read it twice already

I do remember him saying that it is because of the nervous system but I wanted more detail. You're right though in that it is an up-front book with lots of good details.

I also found an interesting article on the subject here:
http://www.ageless-athletes.com/flawed_training.shtml

Again not exactly what I wanted but it does have interesting ideas.

[BisonHurdler]

Re: Question about sprint training...

Whoops, then nevermind.


Sorry, I don't have any real resources to expand on the ideas.

[Punisher]

Re: Question about sprint training...

Hi mopek,

I will try to explain the IAAF level II sprints bible as we call it. High intensity Speed 95%+ can be maintined for about 3-5s, this will cover distances up to about 60m. Here the muscle uses the anaerobic alactic energy system. Energy produce without oxygen and does not involve lactic acid buildup in the muscles. Between 60m-150m of high intensity speed work the energy system used is the Anaerobic Lactic System. This type of training taxes the CNS central Nervous System which takes up to 76 hours to recover. That is why you feel sapped after 50m+ repeats at high intensity.

I hope this sheds a little light on your question. I have other info that will help explain better but I have to get it. If you need more info contact me.
[email protected]

[mopek]

Re: Question about sprint training...

Hi Punisher,

Thanks for the info.

SO....

From 3-5 seconds of work or 50m repeats, you use primarily the CNS. How does it get taxed? And what does it need to recover?

From 60-150m ... you build up lactic acid and that takes 72 hours to recover you say? What about 400m runners? I know that at the end of thier races thier bodies are flooded with lactic acid. Are they using a different system?

mopek

[Punisher]

Re: Question about sprint training...

"From 3-5 seconds of work or 50m repeats, you use primarily the CNS"

From 2-5s the CNS is not taxed.

To maintain muscular activity the immediate production and replacement of ATP(Adenosine Tri-Phosphate is necessary). Every cell in the body has an ATP store that must be kept full or as nearly full as possible for the cells to funtion properly. When muscular activity occurs these stores are used up and must be replaced. There are three systems alvailable to provide energy to resynthesize ATP and refill the depleted stores.
1. ATP-CP system (Adenosine Tri-phosphate Phospho Creatine.
2. The Lactate System
3. The Aerobic System

At maximal levels of effort the amount of ATP stored in the muscle is only sufficient for about 5s of activity The ATP-CP system is used in immediate maximal efforts and is predominant for up to 5s. The Lactate system will supply ATP for longer than 5s up to about 45s. Between 45s and 2minutes the lactate system is still the predominant supplier of ATP but then the aerobic system will make a gradually increasing contribution over time.


"How does it get taxed?"
"And what does it need to recover?"

Speed Endurance (6-20s of Maximal effort)
Special Endurance I (20-40s of Maximal effort)
Special Endurance II (40-90s of maximal effort)

These three makes the nervous system fatigue. When the nervous system is tired it takes longer than muscles to recover. It is said it takes about 76 hours so before another speed endurance or special endurance seesion can be done the athlete must be given enough time for CNS to recover.

Does this answer your question?

From 60-150m ... you build up lactic acid and that takes 72 hours to recover you say? What about 400m runners? I know that at the end of thier races thier bodies are flooded with lactic acid. Are they using a different system?

400m runners will be primarily using the Lactate system.


Speed Endurance and Special endurance sessions should be two days apart in the training week.

I hope that this sheds some light for you.

[tafnut]

Re: Question about sprint training...

doh, I went to the Level I in Gainesville and DID learn that. Here's the part I should have remembered, because I violate it sometimes:

"Speed Endurance and Special endurance sessions should be two days apart in the training week."

It's not as simple as 'hard day, easy day'.

What has always amazed me is that 10 different coaches will come up with 10 different schedules for basically the same groups of athletes. I'm not talking about individualized training plans, but HS and college groups that train together.

So my question is: what books do you recommend have the best 'plans'?

[Punisher]

Re: Question about sprint training...

"What has always amazed me is that 10 different coaches will come up with 10 different schedules for basically the same groups of athletes. I'm not talking about individualized training plans, but HS and college groups that train together. "

"So my question is: what books do you recommend have the best 'plans'?"

Most of the books I have read gives general guidelines on how to plan a training programme but I have never encountered any that gives you detailed plans for groups of athletes.

On my Level II course we got a handout with the relationship of the energy systems and how to use it to plan our programs. It gives detals of the total distance that should be run for each system, the amount of reps, sets, rest etc. This is what I use to plan my programmes. I coach elementary and high school athletes. As you said it is very hard to have individualized programs for this group so I plan a general program that I use with all my

[Olegi2]

Re: Question about sprint training...

High intensity training is destructive - it breaks down the fibres in the muscle(s) being trained and an athlete, depending on his/her fitness level, can be exhausted. When the training stops, the reverse happens and fibres are regenerated (48/72 hours?) But the body will overcompensate and build more fibres than it started with, leading to hypertrophy. When the overcompensation is completed then training should resume. When is that? A muscle biopsy will tell you but is hardly likely to be included in a coach's expertise, and the art of coaching is not easily acquired.Tolerance of lactic acid can be trained. Steve Cram(if I remember correctly) had a unit consisting of 8 x 200m in 23/24 secs with 90 seconds recovery.
Vertical jumpers who require a large power/weight ratio, don't train for hypertrophy, so their training is geared to using more motor units in the muscle group.
This could go on & on but I very much doubt that you can hope for a full and satisfying answer to your question on such a forum. Buy the books and study.
Sports Training Principles by Frank W Dick B.sc
ISBN 0-86019-036-6

Fitness & strength Training for all Sports by
Jurgen Hartmann Ph.D and Harold Tunnemann Ph.D
ISBN 0-920945-42-0

[Cerutty Boy]

Re: Question about sprint training...

"But the body will overcompensate and build more
fibres than it started with, leading to hypertrophy."

Your terminology is correct - but the conclusion is false. The "building" of additional muscle fibers is referred to as hyperplasia; hypertrophy is the "building up" (increase in area of the fiber cross-section). The body responds to high-intensity exercise with hypertrophy, the number of fibers in the muscle is, as far as I know, fixed.

[mopek]

Re: Question about sprint training...

Thanks Punisher for your answers.

It is alot clearer now. Especially
this section of your answer...

"These three makes the nervous system fatigue. When the nervous system is tired it takes longer than muscles to recover. It is said it takes about 76 hours so before another speed endurance or special endurance seesion can be done the athlete must be given enough time for CNS to recover."

Ok...so now that we know this...

What is going on, on a physiological level within the nervous system that is depleting it so much? Is it an inbalance in the Na/K+ balance? What constitutes fatigue in the CNS?

In bodybuilding, muscles get micro-tears and need time and nutrients to re-build.

With the lactate system, muscles and the body have too much lactic acid and cannot get rid of it ( or process the lactate) as fast as it is being produced. The body then is fatigued and needs rest to process all the residual lactate in the body and muscles.

But what is going on in the CNS?

I'll also keep reading and researching,
and if I find the answe I'll post it.

mopek

[marknhj]

Re: Question about sprint training...

Olegi2...I haven't read an athletics training theory book for almost 30 years. However, I remember being taught that the body couldn't create more fibres, training just improved the existing ones. Has some new theory been developed since I last looked? Or did I just have bad teachers?

[gh]

Re: Question about sprint training...

At this point, the next post said

<<Hi All,

I found an online article that brings me a bit closer to the answer still.>>

The "article" was a commercial site selling the proprietor's supplement program and as such violates the Board's proscription against such sites (because they're commercial, not because they're flogging supplements).