how about first 3 don't go from the Olympic Trials?

[gh]

Logan hints that kind of suggestion might fly with new panel

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics ... anel_N.htm

[Conor Dary]

After the gouchergate fiasco, I guess now Phil Knight wants a say in who goes.

[Marlow]

"In my verbal charge to them, I said that nothing was sacred. They were to treat nothing as set in stone. We're going to work off a blank sheet of paper." That means that a given in the sport such as picking the top-three at the trials for the Olympic team, assuming international qualifying standards have been met, is up for debate.

OMG, he's been reading the board here and likes my suggestions for alternate team-choosing methodologies! I knew it'd just be a matter of time before he saw the light!

[Smoke]

What in the world is wrong with our sport! Fellas are we really going all out based on ONE Olympiad? ONE! This is not a reaction to a series of failures, this isn't even a case of failing! We lost a relay and Jamaica had the Games of a lifetime, and we are talking selection, and Logan is quoting me pr percentages.
Excuse my french but this is bull$hit. This is politics and I do not care what those in charge have to say about it. This thing has to go a long way to prove to me this is not agenda driven and a blatant attack on certain sectors of the sport.
I am more and more dissatisfied with the inclusion of Carl, a man that has villified us publicly since he retired. A man that has recently talked of suspecting Bolt because of his performances. And that is only significant and relevant to my point because Carl has a documented history of questioning EVERY top sprinter that has come around after him. All of them.
It is maddening to read about Beijing as if the US ran subpar or did not medal. We dropped the stick damnit, other than that we did what we always do, run fast. Somewhere along the way some of us forgot losing is a part of the sport.

[MJR]

Unless you are injured, sick, or the weather is a factor, not being close to PR shape & performing with your best possible performance at the World or Olympics is a BIG PROBLEM. Not seeing that as a problem is indicative of being blind.

Potential reasons for that problem:

1- your personal coach screwed up your training
2- your federation is not supporting you properly at the event
3- the staff at the competition is not doing its job
4- you simply choked = psychologically unprepared

Logan can address #'s 2 & 3. Its refreshing to see someone willing to take a hard look at things to tr to improve them rather than to just allow the good ol' boys to contiue to steer the ship where ever they want to without be held accountable for anything.

Smoke, you seem to have an agenda that includes keeping the status quo in place. Would you mind outing yourself so we know what that agenda is?

[Smoke]

MJR I see why you would say that but you are wrong.
I have zero agenda and that frees me up to see this thing a little differently. I am neither opposed to change or opposed to things remaining as they are.
What I have a problem with is the politics and agenda driven decisions. I should say seemingly agenda driven.
I have a problem with the indictment of a program that has been successful 99% of the time and is now under siege as if it is flawed and failing.
This is not an evaluation of the entire program just HP which is primarily sprints and relays. The core of our team, the most successful aspect of team USA.
As I wrote Mr. Logan I am pleased he is willing to take the lead and stand up, but that in no way means I agree with his means, his words, or his insinuations.
There are serious things about this seven member panel and I am highly disturbed that most of you are so much in praise of it.
What I am is hopeful I am wrong. I pray I am completely wrong but it will not stop me from questioning what I see and having a voice where I can.
And I completely disagree with you about the pr issue. When we start evaluating folks on time we are in trouble. Further if you analyze the US team this year most did on par with their ability.
How come no one is singing the praises of Walter Dix? He did magnificent at these Games but xenophobia has you all blind. The man walked away a double medalist. Shawn Crawford medaled from nowhere. Tyson was hurt, and six weeks was not enough time. Doc was going to have to pull a rabbit out of his hat to match his PR race, however he ran right at his career level in that final. The 400 swept, the 400h swept, the 4x4 won, the hurdlers took 2 of three medals. The women suffered in the 100 admittedly. In the 200 everyone ran what they were supposed to, they performed well. In the 400 I was not surprised at all, and the problem there has little to do with the HP program. In the 400h that silver was an excellent result for the three women that qualified. In the 100h the top woman hit a hurdle and we still won the damn race. The 4x4 won. The 4x1 dropped the stick. I could go person by person but this post is long enough!
The point is outside of dropping the stick there is no problem in the events under 400. Now if you want to have a real conversation we need to start talking about what Cook addressed, the distance runners. If we are including them in the HP issue then I am listening with full attention. If we are analyzing the throwers too I am all ears. There are some historical normalities that definitely need to be addressed in these areas.
Unfortunately all I have read about is the so called failings of the relay, and the complete lies about the preparation of the 4x1s. As I have been preaching, it is a relay race and dropping the stick is a part of the game, same as hitting a hurdle. Things to be addressed but not signs of failings of an entire program per se.

1- possibly true and nothing the federation can do about it.
2- whew, this is an interesting issue here in the US. the numbers stand against it, but the camp situation can be a factor here
3- see number 2. not sure there is more that can be done given the circumstances of our track team being coached individually.
4- like dropping the stick and hitting a hurdle

And MJR I would be more than happy to tell you who I am if I thought you would see it clearly but you have already let me know you have judged me. And you do not know me. Others here do know who I am though. Trust me, my agenda is no where near what you implied.

[gm]

I will venture to say that Smoke is one of the few voices here who is eminently qualified to comment on this.

[trackhead]

MJR I see why you would say that but you are wrong.
I have zero agenda and that frees me up to see this thing a little differently. I am neither opposed to change or opposed to things remaining as they are.
What I have a problem with is the politics and agenda driven decisions. I should say seemingly agenda driven.
I have a problem with the indictment of a program that has been successful 99% of the time and is now under siege as if it is flawed and failing.
This is not an evaluation of the entire program just HP which is primarily sprints and relays. The core of our team, the most successful aspect of team USA.
As I wrote Mr. Logan I am pleased he is willing to take the lead and stand up, but that in no way means I agree with his means, his words, or his insinuations.
There are serious things about this seven member panel and I am highly disturbed that most of you are so much in praise of it.
What I am is hopeful I am wrong. I pray I am completely wrong but it will not stop me from questioning what I see and having a voice where I can.
And I completely disagree with you about the pr issue. When we start evaluating folks on time we are in trouble. Further if you analyze the US team this year most did on par with their ability.
How come no one is singing the praises of Walter Dix? He did magnificent at these Games but xenophobia has you all blind. The man walked away a double medalist. Shawn Crawford medaled from nowhere. Tyson was hurt, and six weeks was not enough time. Doc was going to have to pull a rabbit out of his hat to match his PR race, however he ran right at his career level in that final. The 400 swept, the 400h swept, the 4x4 won, the hurdlers took 2 of three medals. The women suffered in the 100 admittedly. In the 200 everyone ran what they were supposed to, they performed well. In the 400 I was not surprised at all, and the problem there has little to do with the HP program. In the 400h that silver was an excellent result for the three women that qualified. In the 100h the top woman hit a hurdle and we still won the damn race. The 4x4 won. The 4x1 dropped the stick. I could go person by person but this post is long enough!
The point is outside of dropping the stick there is no problem in the events under 400. Now if you want to have a real conversation we need to start talking about what Cook addressed, the distance runners. If we are including them in the HP issue then I am listening with full attention. If we are analyzing the throwers too I am all ears. There are some historical normalities that definitely need to be addressed in these areas.
Unfortunately all I have read about is the so called failings of the relay, and the complete lies about the preparation of the 4x1s. As I have been preaching, it is a relay race and dropping the stick is a part of the game, same as hitting a hurdle. Things to be addressed but not signs of failings of an entire program per se.

1- possibly true and nothing the federation can do about it.
2- whew, this is an interesting issue here in the US. the numbers stand against it, but the camp situation can be a factor here
3- see number 2. not sure there is more that can be done given the circumstances of our track team being coached individually.
4- like dropping the stick and hitting a hurdle

And MJR I would be more than happy to tell you who I am if I thought you would see it clearly but you have already let me know you have judged me. And you do not know me. Others here do know who I am though. Trust me, my agenda is no where near what you implied.

On the flip side, if Tyson had been preselected as the reigning world champion, he wouldn't have had to double at the Trials and could have called it a day after the 9.77/9.68w. It cuts both ways.

[Smoke]

The waiver has nothing to do with USATF, that is an IOC issue as the World waiver is an IAAF issue.

I realized this year that at some point you have to draw the line to maintain the history. There is a reason the Olympics is so special. It did not truly hit me until this year.
Our World Championships is great. It is ours, and it is a part of why we train and compete. but it is hard to duplicate the exposure of the Olympics and the impact it has on a career. 8 million sets of eyes is hard to do for a single sport.

While I am far from a traditionalist, I am not ignorant to the fact that tradition is one of the lures of our sport. we are still doing what Jesse Owens was doing and Jim Thorpe, and Rafer Johnson, and Carl Lewis and Wilma Rudolph and Fannie Blankers-Koers were doing.
Evolution for survival and growth I am with. Change for personal agendas and for changes sake I am skeptical of.

As I said I sincerely want to be 100% wrong about everything I write about this issue. I want Logan to be right and for his plan to be true and productive.

[Marlow]

As I said I sincerely want to be 100% wrong about everything I write about this issue. I want Logan to be right and for his plan to be true and productive.

Then the best course of action would be to let him do his job and see IF things must change. He will not change for the sake of change precisely because we still are #1 in the world. But if this panel DOES come up with some new ideas, and he OKs them, I do think it would be worth trying.

[eldrick]

What in the world is wrong with our sport! Fellas are we really going all out based on ONE Olympiad? ONE! This is not a reaction to a series of failures, this isn't even a case of failing!

this may or may not be a reaction to this og, or it may be the straw that broke the camel's back for previous ogs where the best athletes didn't make it thru trials thru injury or illness or plain shit out of luck, but wouda been ready to perform at the og

the legions of absentees is legendary

- Carl in '92 over 100
- dan the man in '92
- gwen over 200 in '96
- mj/mo in '00 over 200

i'd have put each one of those as virtual certainities for gold if they'd gone to og

if the new policies means the 'greats' get an automatic selection, i'm all for it

after all, og is about seeing the best talent possible

[Barto]

The US system has been broke for a long time.

Any global championship with fewer than 30 medals should not be seen as a success.

Historians will have a field day with that statement, but I have no problem asserting that with our resources and talent pool 25% of the medals is not unreasonable.

[trackhead]

The waiver has nothing to do with USATF, that is an IOC issue as the World waiver is an IAAF issue.

I realized this year that at some point you have to draw the line to maintain the history. There is a reason the Olympics is so special. It did not truly hit me until this year.
Our World Championships is great. It is ours, and it is a part of why we train and compete. but it is hard to duplicate the exposure of the Olympics and the impact it has on a career. 8 million sets of eyes is hard to do for a single sport.

While I am far from a traditionalist, I am not ignorant to the fact that tradition is one of the lures of our sport. we are still doing what Jesse Owens was doing and Jim Thorpe, and Rafer Johnson, and Carl Lewis and Wilma Rudolph and Fannie Blankers-Koers were doing.
Evolution for survival and growth I am with. Change for personal agendas and for changes sake I am skeptical of.

As I said I sincerely want to be 100% wrong about everything I write about this issue. I want Logan to be right and for his plan to be true and productive.

No, I am saying that if the US Olympic Team weren't simply chosen on the basis of finishing place and standards qualification as they are now, and if the USOC could/would assure certain spots to individuals ahead of time, Tyson would have likely been one of them as a reigning world champion, and thus wouldn't have had to come back and race the 200m after his 9.77/9.68w runs at the Trials. Thus, he is one person who could have potentially benefited from a change in the system (and consequently, Team USA could have benefited by having a healthy, uninjured Tyson Gay at the Olympics, but we'll never know).

And it isn't the same system that "all others before have passed through." I believe that the current format was instituted in 1972. I recall there being at least two (possibly three?) "US Team Trials" in '68 (possibly in addition to AAUs).

[Smoke]

roke for a long time? Nay, you just disagree with the selection process but it has not been broken nor is it broken.

92 Carl is not a lock for gold, we sent the best sprinters in the world outside of Linford in 92. But I get the point.

marlow I am letting it play out and my participation is a part of this playing out. I am not saying anything here I did not say to Mr. Logan. I am not saying anything that I am not going to question throughout.
I am not letting this play out to the drum of someone elses beat. It matters to me and I will be active in this. We all should be. This thing needs watching and balance.

As far as selection of an Olympic team the best system is top three, first 2 guaranteed, and third discretionary spot. Dependent upon fitness and current form. However do not be confused this is not solving a thing it is just a different way to skin a cat, just ask the Brits. This is short of lobbying the IOC for a gold medal waiver. Now I have joked about lobbying the IAAF for allowing the top 8 US 110HH into all majors and then filling the fields around them but that is a unique event.

Pls remember this is not just abotu the selection process either, the entire system is being audited. While I am keen on the sprints aspect HP is not just sprints, it is the elite arm of USATF.
Be mindful the USOC member are from the money arm of this thing.

I am not screaming conspiracy, I am screaming pay attention. Pay attention to the whole picture not just what you see that you feel is wrong.

Lastly, Logan is not passing anything without approval from us, this committee will make recommendations, Logan will make decisions based on that and the collective will decide what actually happens.

[malmo]

Logan punched some numbers himself, finding that just 10.6% of the men and 16.9% of the women achieved personal bests in Beijing. "I have come to the conclusion, as an organization, USATF is seriously deficient if judged by the mandate of our own charter," Logan wrote in a blog post.

Unless you are injured, sick, or the weather is a factor, not being close to PR shape & performing with your best possible performance at the World or Olympics is a BIG PROBLEM. Not seeing that as a problem is indicative of being blind.

I disagree strongly. Personal bests at the Olympic level are rare. If logan thinks that those figures (10.6% of men and 16.9%) are "low low" then it's incumbent upon him to say what the numbers should be, and how he determined those numbers?