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  • #46
    Boyle had the two elements needed to be a great sprinter. She had the physical gifts to run fast AND she had the right mental attitude and strength to run the rounds and win. Australia hasn't really had anyone with that double since Freeman. Boyle also had the technique that would put Australia's current crop of sprinters to shame, there is a great photo of her in her bio in a great sprint position.

    We tend to get one great female sprinter every generation, with us being spoilt for choice leading into Sydney. If Sally focuses on the 100m for a season we might see her get close to 11.00 as she has the start, strength and mental attitude to get her there, however I am not sure she would be keen to move away from the hurdles where she has had such great success. Maybe Mel Breen will be the next one to take up the challenge?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Speedster

      We tend to get one great female sprinter every generation, with us being spoilt for choice leading into Sydney. If Sally focuses on the 100m for a season we might see her get close to 11.00 as she has the start, strength and mental attitude to get her there, however I am not sure she would be keen to move away from the hurdles where she has had such great success.
      Much talk of Boyle's exploits in 1972 on this thread, and Germans, Ossie and Western [1976]. McLellan finally took the Aussie record under the winning 12.59 from Munich 1972, achieved by East German Annelie Ehrhardt. Still no Aussie to run better than the winning 11.07 from '72. McLellan is such a damn good hurdler she'd be nuts to stray from that event, though I won't be surprised when she takes the Oz record sub 11, which I predict she'll do this winter with a 10.99. Following that, she'll break the world indoor 60 hurdles record.

      Take good care of yourself.

      Comment


      • #48
        The problem with all of this discussion is the issue of exceptionalism...

        The gist of the problem appears to be that somehow Australian athletics has "failed" for not producing another Raelene Boyle...

        The same could be said for a lot of nations:
        - NZ had failed to produce another John Walker or Yvette Williams
        - Russia has failed to produce another Valerie Borzov
        - Tunisia has failed to produce another Mohammed Gammoudi
        - Greece has failed to produce another Spiridon Louis

        Clearly Panama has revived its fortunes by nurturing the rise of Irving Saldino.

        These are all farcical examples, as these athletes were often exceptions in there own lifetimes (or curious historical anamolies).

        As was noted earlier, Peter Norman lowered a 36 year old record. Sometimes in smaller nations with smaller pools of possible champions we might have to wait around a generation or two for the "next big thing". Australia is not a powerhouse athletics nation. And it rarely has been. There was a decade or so of over-performance on the women's side in the 1950s and early 60s which reflected in many ways the post-war hardships and small competitive pool for that gender. Ever since, Australia's periodic flashes of brilliance have typically been simply because a very talented exception popped up (plus some oportunistic "early adopting" of new events and concentration on less popular events).

        The "rare talents" (I'm excluding imports such as Markov):
        - Boyle, Freeman, Darren Clark, de Castella, Steve Hooker, McLellan, Rick Mitchell, Ralph Doubell, Pam Ryan, Pittman, Mottram, Lisa Martin/Ondieki

        The "early adopters":
        - Emma George, Melissa Rollinson


        The "early adopters"

        Comment


        • #49
          AS,
          Did I miss something? You referred to Aussie female achievements, I believe.
          Are you overlooking Landy, Elliott, Clarke, and several other World leaders in Men's distance running from Australia? I don't think either this wave, or the wave of Kiwis from the 60's and 70's fall conveniently under your title of exceptionalism. There was a time when a couple of small nations from "way down under" took the world by storm in Men's distance running, and it was not a matter of 1 or 2 individuals, as much as a culture of excellence in these events.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by AS
            The problem with all of this discussion is the issue of exceptionalism...

            The gist of the problem appears to be that somehow Australian athletics has "failed" for not producing another Raelene Boyle...

            The same could be said for a lot of nations:
            - NZ had failed to produce another John Walker or Yvette Williams
            - Russia has failed to produce another Valerie Borzov
            - Tunisia has failed to produce another Mohammed Gammoudi
            This fact was mentioned previously in this thread. A nation can not duplicate its absolute best year in and year out and we have mentioned this fact above. But the regression of AUS in sprinting seems to go well beyond this.
            ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by rasb
              AS,
              Did I miss something? You referred to Aussie female achievements, I believe.
              Are you overlooking Landy, Elliott, Clarke, and several other World leaders in Men's distance running from Australia? I don't think either this wave, or the wave of Kiwis from the 60's and 70's fall conveniently under your title of exceptionalism. There was a time when a couple of small nations from "way down under" took the world by storm in Men's distance running, and it was not a matter of 1 or 2 individuals, as much as a culture of excellence in these events.
              Australia did "overperform" in men's distance during the 1950s and 1960s, as did the US. Then the rest of the world (i.e. Europe) recovered from WW2 and the Africans appeared. The pool was very, very shallow in that period (as much as we like to glamorise it).

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by AS
                Originally posted by rasb
                AS,
                Did I miss something? You referred to Aussie female achievements, I believe.
                Are you overlooking Landy, Elliott, Clarke, and several other World leaders in Men's distance running from Australia? ....
                Australia did "overperform" in men's distance during the 1950s and 1960s, as did the US. Then the rest of the world (i.e. Europe) recovered from WW2 and the Africans appeared. The pool was very, very shallow in that period (as much as we like to glamorise it).

                Elliot was a giant in any era... he would be a 1500m champ today, and he never reached his potential.
                ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by paulthefan
                  ... But the regression of AUS in sprinting seems to go well beyond this.
                  Let's look for genuine statistical evidence of a decline:
                  from http://www.athletics.com.au/community/s ... gs/alltime

                  Men's 100m:

                  Fastest 100m runners prior to 1980
                  10.1h Gary Holdwsworth (1967)
                  10.1h Greg Lewis (1973) - also ran 10.46 in 1974
                  10.1h Graham Haskell (1973) - also ran 10.42 in 1974
                  7 x 10.2h, plus a 10.42 & 10.44

                  Australia had 3 men rank in TFN Top 10 between 1947-56 (Treloar, Degruchy & Hogan) and 1 in the 1960s (Holdwsworth).

                  Fastest 100m runners since 1980
                  1 sub 10s
                  2 more sub 10.10
                  5 more sub10.20
                  10 more sub 10.30
                  13 more sub 10.40

                  I don't believe Australia has had a TFN Top 10 ranking man in this event since Holdsworth (TFN site has not been updated since 2001)

                  Men's 200m:

                  Fastest 200m runners prior to 1980
                  20.06 Peter Norman (1968)
                  20.53 Greg Lewis (1968) - also ran 10.46 in 1974
                  20.4h Paul Narracott (1979)
                  20.6yh Jim Carlton (1932)
                  20.5h Peter Fitzgerald (1976)
                  3 x 20.6h

                  Australia had 3 men rank in TFN Top 10 between 1948-52 (Treloar & Bartram) and 1 in the 1960s (Norman).

                  Fastest 200m runners since 1980
                  2 sub 20.20
                  3 more sub 20.40
                  7 more 20.50

                  Capobianco and Marsh ranked in TFN Top 10 in 1990s

                  Men's 400m:

                  Fastest 400m runners prior to 1980
                  45.40 Rick Mitchell (1976)
                  45.61 Ross Wilson (1970)
                  45.7h Steve Longden-Gee (1974)
                  45.7h John Higham (1978)
                  45.86 Colin McQueen (1979)

                  Australia had 3 men rank in TFN Top 10 between 1948-57 (Curotta, Carr & Gosper) and 1 in the 1970s (Mitchell).

                  Fastest 400m runners since 1980
                  1 sub 44.50
                  6 more sub 45.00
                  9 more 45.50

                  Mitchell and Clark ranked in the 1980s, and Steffensen has in the 00s.

                  Women's 100m:

                  Fastest 100m runners prior to 1980
                  11.20 Boyle (1968)
                  11.33 Dianne Bowering-Burge (1968)
                  11.0h Denise Robertson-Boyd (1973)
                  11.35 Helen Edwards-Davey (1979) - and 11.1h (1979)
                  11.4e Marilyn Black (1964)
                  11.50 Pam Kilborn-Ryan (1968)
                  2 x 11.2h, 5 x 11.3h

                  Australia had 18 women rank in TFN Top 10 in the years 1956-76.

                  Fastest 100m runners since 1980
                  3 sub 11.20s
                  5 more sub 11.30
                  5 more sub 11.40 (including Breen's 11.33 from weekend)

                  I don't believe Australia has had a TFN Top 10 ranking woman in this event since Boyle in 1976 (TFN site has not been updated since 2001)

                  Women's 200m:

                  Fastest 200m runners prior to 1980
                  22.45 Boyle (1972)
                  22.88 Jenny Lamy (1968)
                  23.18 Black (1964)
                  22.9yh Margaret Burvill (1964)
                  23.0h Bowering-Burge (1968)
                  23.0h Sue Jowett (1976)
                  23.2yh Betty Cuthbert (1960)

                  Australia had 16 women rank in TFN Top 10 in the years 1956-78.

                  Fastest 200m runners since 1980
                  3 sub 22.40
                  3 more sub 22.80
                  6 more 23.00

                  Gainsford-Taylor and Freeman ranked in TFN Top 10 in 1990s & 2000s

                  The huge drop in times in women's 400m makes that discussion a less useful one (and I must get back to work ), but it is worth noting that that Australia had 5 women in TFN Top 10 prior to 1980 and 2 since.

                  All in all, the story would seem to be one of much greater "decline" on the women's side than men. And I would argue the support for a decline on the men's is pretty weak. Interestingly, Boyle was really the last of the women before Gainsford-Taylor and Freeman revived the fortunes. There was a huge "bubble" in the women's side during the 1950s and early 1960s, which as I argued perhaps reflects Australia's relative unscathedness from wartime loss.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by paulthefan
                    Elliot was a giant in any era... he would be a 1500m champ today, and he never reached his potential.
                    he certainly was a giant & unbeaten, but his era was weak - his 3'35.6 on cinders is maybe 3'31.8 on synthetic ( off 1s/lap improvement )

                    i woudn't have backed him against snell who was probably a 3'30 guy, keino who's mexico run musta been 3'30 at sea-level & certainly not ryun who was worth 3'27/3'28 in '67

                    he'd have had a helluva battle with vassala who had 1'44-speed & apparently looked unbeatable in '72, but didn't run a really fast paced 1500

                    i doubt he wouda beaten walker in '76 who claimed he couda run 3'31 in the final ( or was it 3'30 ? )

                    he wasn't going to beat coe in '80/'84, nor cacho a 3'28.9 guy in '92 nor obviously morceli nor ngeny ( 3'43 ) nor hicham nor ramzi ( his prelim looked to show 3'28 ability )

                    only guy he wouda definitely beaten was rono in '88

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mennisco
                      Originally posted by eldrick

                      she didn't break 11.2 in that meet...........21.7 can't be done off 11.2
                      I agree, 21.7 is a far stretch. But she said herself she had trained exclusively for the 200, and 100 champion Richter said the Germans considered her the favorite for the 200. Her 11.23 in the dead air of Montreal with a 0.0 wind was sufficiently better than her 11.23 in Munich to project a significant improvement over the '72 22.45; she'd likely have won the gold with ~ 22.30, or maybe even a WR.
                      Boyle's best time in Montreal was her (non-altitude) PB of 11.22. It's worth remembering that in the 100m final she was charged with a false start (there was at least one more if I recall - maybe from Brit Andrea Lynch) and Raelene got away badly when the field got away legally.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        give her 11.15 then - bad start normally doesn't cost you more than 1/10th, unless it's absolutely appalling

                        that gives a limit of 21.75

                        most even energy distribution to do this is

                        "straight 100m" effort on curve + 0.20 or 0.25 s for the curve + flying equivalent of same "sraight" 100m on stretch, which is 1.0s slower = 21.75

                        -> straight 100m + 0.20 or 0.25 + straight 100m - 1.0 = 21.75

                        -> straight 100m = ~ 11.25 - 11.275s

                        this means for a 11.15 gal she had to put in this "effort" on the curve ( about 0.10 - 0.125s off her pb ) & same again on the stretch

                        it can be done on the curve, but you can't do it on the stretch after

                        look at mj's 19.32 :

                        10.12 + 9.20

                        i give him maybe 9.87 ability that day & maybe 0.15s for gentler modern curves - that's 9.87 + 0.15s = 10.02 possible fastest on the curve ( about 0.10s off the 10.12 split he ran & comparable to above ) - however, he came back in the stretch in 9.20, which is an open 100 of ~ 10.20 ( over 3/10ths off his possible 100m pb )

                        situation for bolt's 19.30 is even more dramatic : 9.96 + 9.34

                        he had 9.69pb ( call it 9.60 with no celebrating & better RT )

                        he ran a 9.96 split, which with 0.15s for curve is ~ 9.81 effort, or more than 0.20s off his 100m pb

                        he runs the stretch in 9.34 which is an open 100m of ~ 10.34 !

                        bottom line, you can't run within ~1/10th effort of your 100m pb on the curve & same again on the stretch

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by AS
                          The problem with all of this discussion is the issue of exceptionalism...

                          The gist of the problem appears to be that somehow Australian athletics has "failed" for not producing another Raelene Boyle...

                          The same could be said for a lot of nations
                          Oh yes, the United States has failed miserably for never producing a single Raelene Boyle, while manufacturing a zillion porn stars with amazing legs.

                          :wink:
                          Take good care of yourself.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Vault-emort
                            Boyle's best time in Montreal was her (non-altitude) PB of 11.22. It's worth remembering that in the 100m final she was charged with a false start (there was at least one more if I recall - maybe from Brit Andrea Lynch) and Raelene got away badly when the field got away legally.
                            Thanks for pointing that out. I sure wish we could see reaction times in the sprints from that era, plus 100 splits in the 200s. Raelene was trailing Stecher by how much coming off the bend in Munich? The one sound bite I have always remembered since being 11 years old and watching the Munich final is ...."AND here comes Raelene Boyle!! "

                            That woman had more star power in her personality than a dozen American and Jamaican sprinters, not counting Merlene Ottey or Flojo [but then Flojo just does not count, period....]

                            Take good care of yourself.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Mennisco
                              be still my heart!
                              ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Since this thread seems to have turned into the Boyle fan club, you might like these ones too Mennisco and Paul


                                1974 - Raelene at Commonwealth Games recovering from serious injury to run 11.25/22.50


                                midrace of the Montreal Olympic final with five of the greatest sprinters of their time - Boyle, Richter, Gohr, Ashford, Stecher


                                and the finish. Boyle not far back despite her poor start.

                                Comment

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