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  • #16
    Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

    >Actually, he has 5 outdoor Worlds golds.


    Yes .. But we are talking about his legacy over the hurdles ... And there he has 4 ...

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

      >>skeets was quicker



      Maybe in a 400. But i believe 12.92 trumps 12.93,
      >any way you look at it.


      actually skeets 12.93 was run into a 0.2 wind,whereas AJ's 2 12.92's had a following wind.

      i don't wish to be pedantic,but that 12.93 is at least worth the same as those 12.92's

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

        I fully agree, Allen Johnson, winning in Athens certifies himself as the all time best.

        There's always the what would have beens...

        nehemiah and johnson in their primes for 10 years, racing against one another...

        wow!!! 100 races..each would have won 50....

        nehemiah has better long sprint speed, and might have been a better pure athelete, by a margin..

        yet aj as the pedigree via performance...

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

          actually skeets 12.93 was run into a 0.2
          >wind,whereas AJ's 2 12.92's had a following wind.

          i don't wish to be
          >pedantic,but that 12.93 is at least worth the same as those 12.92's

          i did some work a while back using JRM's wind/altitude calculator & trying to use it in an attempt to work out what hurdles races a worth intrinsically: from an IAAF board post a while back

          "I've tried using you're 100m calculator & it seems to give good results.

          e.g: Consider Garcia's 13.10 into a -2.2m/s wind at Madrid
          Now 13.10/110m is equal to 11.91s at 100m(simple proportion).Input this time with the wind & location into you're calculator,gives an advantage of 0.16s.Now you have to multiply this by 1.1 (as this advantage is for 100m,not 110m),giving a total advantage of -0.176s.
          Therefore Garcia's time would be worth 12.93 at sea-level with 0 wind.

          Now looking at the all-time list:

          1 12.91 +0.5 Colin Jackson GBR 1 Stuttgart 20.08.1993
          2 12.92 -0.1 Roger Kingdom USA 1r1 Zürich 16.08.1989
          2 12.92 +0.9 Allen Johnson USA 1 Atlanta 23.06.1996
          2 12.92 +0.2 Allen Johnson USA 1 Bruxelles 23.08.1996
          5 12.93 -0.2 Renaldo Nehemiah USA 24 1r2 Zürich 19.08.1981
          5 12.93 ±0.0 Allen Johnson USA 1 Athína 07.08.1997
          7 12.94 +1.6 Jack Pierce USA 1s2 Atlanta 22.06.1996
          8 12.95 +0.6 Allen Johnson USA 1 Atlanta 29.07.1996


          Trying the modified calculator gives us a corrected all-time list of:

          Kingdom 12.92 Zurich
          Skeets 12.93 Zurich
          Allen 12.93 Athens
          Allen 12.93 Brussels
          Garcia 12.93 Madrid
          Allen 12.94 Stuttgart
          Colin 12.95 Stuttgart(WR)
          Allen 13.00 Atlanta
          Allen 13.01 Atlanta
          Pierce 13.07 Atlanta"

          i forgot to include colin's 12.97A into a 1.6 wind,which came out as 12.93 (i believe that run is better than his actual WR)

          if i had to put money on anyone,i would say kingdom's former WR is the greatest,intrinsic performance of all-time

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

            >>>skeets was quicker



            Maybe in a 400. But i believe 12.92 trumps
            >12.93,
            >any way you look at it.


            actually skeets 12.93 was run into a 0.2
            >wind,whereas AJ's 2 12.92's had a following wind.

            i don't wish to be
            >pedantic,but that 12.93 is at least worth the same as those 12.92's




            I believe simply by using the word "pedantic", you are, in effect, being pedantic.




            But, the facts remain, regardless of wind, altitude, etc, AJ ran faster. He had the faster average speed. Not by much, but it's still true.



            By the way, if we want to talk about woulda/coulda/shoulda, AJ would've easily broken 12.90 and probably would've been right around 12.80 in Atlanta without smashing that last hurdle.

            If you don't believe me, I can give you his hurdle-by-hurdle splits.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

              But, the facts remain, regardless of wind,
              >altitude, etc, AJ ran faster. He had the faster average speed. Not by much,
              >but it's still true.



              By the way, if we want to talk about
              >woulda/coulda/shoulda, AJ would've easily broken 12.90 and probably would've
              >been right around 12.80 in Atlanta without smashing that last hurdle.


              so you do not think wind & altitude matter?

              do you believe tim's 9.78 (+2m/s) is superior to mo's 9.79(+0.1m/s) in terms of intrinsic value?

              BTW,i am not coulda/shoulda/wouldaying, all i did was to try to ascribe an intrinsic value to these performances,to judge which would be the best under standardised conditions of zero wind/zero altitude

              i would be grateful if you could post AJ's hurdle-by-hurdle splits in atlanta ( PJ on the IAAF board has got some also - it will be great to compare them!)

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

                Oh, I know altitude and wind matter. I'm just saying, even though "intrinsically" Skeets' time is "faster", the fact remains that he did not run faster.

                Just an issue of semantics really.


                And here are AJ's Atlanta splits as per T&FN (and i have included Mark Crear's in parentheses, to show exactly how much ground AJ probably lost coming off the last hurdle):


                It should be noted that these splits were taken with an eye-beam that registered when they crossed the top of the hurdle. They are not touch down times.


                H1: 2.34 (2.35)
                H2: 3.38 (3.38)
                H3: 4.39 (4.37)
                H4: 5.36 (5.39)
                H5: 6.32 (6.39)
                H6: 7.30 (7.41)
                H7: 8.30 (8.46)
                H8: 9.33 (9.47)
                H9: 10.36 (10.51)
                H10: 11.28 (11.56)
                110m: 12.95 (13.09)



                Basically, it appears as if AJ hitting hurdle 10 cut his lead exactly in half, from .28 to .14 seconds. If we suppose that he closes similarly to Crear without hitting that last hurdle, it could be estimated that AJ would've run ~12.81.

                It should also be noted (for what it's worth) that AJ almost doubled his lead from H9 to H10 (.15 to .28).



                Just some interesting stats.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

                  And here are AJ's
                  >Atlanta splits as per T&FN (and i have included Mark Crear's in parentheses, to
                  >show exactly how much ground AJ probably lost coming off the last
                  >hurdle):


                  It should be noted that these splits were taken with an eye-beam
                  >that registered when they crossed the top of the hurdle. They are not touch
                  >down times.


                  H1: 2.34 (2.35)
                  H2: 3.38 (3.38)
                  H3: 4.39 (4.37)
                  H4: 5.36
                  >(5.39)
                  H5: 6.32 (6.39)
                  H6: 7.30 (7.41)
                  H7: 8.30 (8.46)
                  H8: 9.33 (9.47)
                  H9:
                  >10.36 (10.51)
                  H10: 11.28 (11.56)
                  110m: 12.95 (13.09)



                  Basically, it
                  >appears as if AJ hitting hurdle 10 cut his lead exactly in half, from .28 to
                  >.14 seconds. If we suppose that he closes similarly to Crear without hitting
                  >that last hurdle, it could be estimated that AJ would've run ~12.81.

                  It
                  >should also be noted (for what it's worth) that AJ almost doubled his lead from
                  >H9 to H10 (.15 to .28).

                  great splits ! it'll take some time to chew over them

                  some stats PJ provided on IAAF board:

                  "10 hurdles (1.067m)
                  start -> 1st hurdle = 13.72m
                  10 yards between each hurdles (9.144m)
                  last hurdle -> finish 14.02m

                  I have studied some of those races years ago, i don't know where i have put them I don’t have time to search! To be true, i have analysed much more 100m hurdles than 110m hurdles as i concentrate generally on women's events.

                  I give you 2 analyses made by IAAF biomechanicians for Roger Kingdom in Seoul'88 and Allen Johnson Athens'97, 2 of the fastest races ever. (+ indicates hit hurdle)

                  Allen JOHNSON
                  RT 0.128
                  01H 02.56 2.44
                  02H 03.56 1.00 +
                  03H 04.54 0.98
                  04H 05.54 1.00 +
                  05H 06.52 0.98
                  06H 07.54 1.02 +
                  07H 08.52 0.98
                  08H 09.57 1.05 +
                  09H 10.59 1.02
                  10H 11.62 1.03
                  110 12.93 1.31
                  Altough this race looked cleaner than his Atlanta race, Johnson’s rhythm unit was very unsteady while in Atlanta his speed curve was normal (an peaked at 0.96 for his fastest unit, probably the fastest ever). In Athens it could have much more faster than that 12.93, assuming that he had three 0.98 units, something very exceptional. In this kind of race, a time around 12.85 is possible.

                  Roger KINGDOM
                  RT 0.142
                  01H 02.55 2.41
                  02H 03.60 1.05
                  03H 04.61 1.01
                  04H 05.61 1.00
                  05H 06.61 1.00 +
                  06H 07.59 0.98
                  07H 08.59 1.00
                  08H 09.59 1.00
                  09H 10.62 1.03
                  10H 11.64 1.02
                  110 12.98 1.34
                  I don’t have this race on tape, scientific analyse says that he hit only one hurdle, a rare feat for Kingdom! However, a very steady pace, a more or less perfect race."

                  note,these splits are at "touch-down"

                  the link to the whole article is here:

                  http://www.iaaf.org/community/forums/Li ... icID=12414

                  here is another topic you may be estimated in:

                  http://www.iaaf.org/community/forums/Li ... icID=13559

                  (ignore the maths bit - that is of little interest,but the conclusions are interesting)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

                    Thanks eldrick!

                    I had just wandered over to the IAAF forums and found that very thread, but i'm definitely interested to check out those links now.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

                      More of PJ's stats: the WR race of jackson:

                      "I have found in my papers my analyse from tapes for Stuttgart'93 race. I have updated my old split times checking again the video to be more accurate:

                      RT - 0.122
                      01H - 02.53 (2.40)
                      02H - 03.54 (1.01)
                      03H - 04.53 (0.99)
                      04H - 05.51 (0.98)
                      05H - 06.49 (0.98)
                      06H - 07.48 (0.99)
                      07H - 08.48 (1.00)
                      08H - 09.49 (1.01)
                      09H - 10.51 (1.02)
                      10H - 11.53 (1.03)
                      FIN - 12.91 (1.37)"

                      & some more:

                      "Time has let me check at last my tapes for Atlanta Trials 110mH:

                      I don't have the RT for those races, maybe they are in my 96 L'Équipe newspapers but i haven't got them with me:

                      Allen JOHNSON
                      RT - ???
                      01H - 02.50 (???) (note Pierce 2.48 before fell !)
                      02H - 03.52 (1.02)
                      03H - 04.51 (0.99)
                      04H - 05.49 (0.98)
                      05H - 06.47 (0.98)
                      06H - 07.44 (0.97)
                      07H - 08.44 (1.00)
                      08H - 09.45 (1.01)
                      09H - 10.48 (1.03)
                      10H - 11.53 (1.05)
                      FIN - 12.92 (1.39)


                      Jack PIERCE
                      RT - ???
                      01H - 02.57 (???)
                      02H - 03.59 (1.02)
                      03H - 04.60 (1.01)
                      04H - 05.62 (1.02)
                      05H - 06.59 (0.97)
                      06H - 07.58 (0.99)
                      07H - 08.57 (0.99)
                      08H - 09.56 (0.99)
                      09H - 10.55 (0.99)
                      10H - 11.58 (1.03)
                      FIN - 12.91 (1.36)"

                      it's good to get all the stats out in 1 go & thus we can try & have a go at analysing them at our leisure

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

                        soory,typo in pierce's stats - the final time is of course 12.94

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

                          I was a huge Skeets fan and thought I would go to my grave insisting he was the best ever, but AJ has converted me and made me a True Believer. AJ, one more time, baby.
                          {Skeets, I still love you, man.)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

                            One thing on the Nehemiah vs Johnson fastest times, I have read that tall hurdlers don't really want a tail wind. Blows them into the hurdles. At the time of Skeets 12.93, there was some talk that the slight headwind was actually about perfect. On the blowing into hurdles, see the classic photo of Greg Foster taking the hurdle out. I think that was NCAA at Illinois, with an over 2.0 wind. Skeets won, as always in that duel. Charles Foster on the other hand, was short, and the wind would probably help him in races.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

                              This is always a tough one for me...

                              Kingdom: Tough competitor, 2-time Champion (although one could argue Foster "lost" that '84 race vs. Kingdom "winning" it), totally dominant during his era.

                              Colin Jackson: World Record Holder (12.91). Nuff said. Well...actually 7.30 for 60mH. Now that's truly something to ponder.

                              Allen Johnson: He's definitely The Man for this era. His championships and stats speak for themselves. Unfortuantely, I think the media and TFN have done him a disservice by ranking Mark Crear ahead of him. As if!

                              Nehemiah: Wow! You guys gotta remember that he quit track and field in his prime. 12.93 in 1981! This was at a time before super tracks, nutritional supplements or specialized spikes. In fact, he ran that time after coming off surgery on his heel. This guy was something special. I think I remember reading an article where Wilbur Ross felt Skeets touchdown times had him approaching 12.79 in a perfect race. Nasty!!!!

                              My guess, Nehemiah wins 1980 Olympics if the U.S doesn't boycott and wins the 1984 Olympics in an Olympic Record. Of course, maybe Kingdom, Colin and Allen run even faster if Nehemiah's world record approaches what Ross predicted.

                              With that being said, I'll be pulling for Allen this summer.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: If Allen JOHNSON...

                                from the splits, i get an ultimate figure of 12.83 - 12.85 if AJ had run the '96 trials race (12.93) as close to perfect as possible

                                however soberingly, jackson's 7.30 does come out somewhere in the 12.80 - 12.82 range! (if he could have maintained that fantastic speed as well as theoretically possible from beyond 60m to 110m - but then again,jackson's strength was his start & pickup & not his close - this was weaker compared,so he may have drifted down to mid 12.8's in actuality)

                                Comment

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