30 medals?

[Gleason]

Re: 30 medals?

Small correction -- Curt Clausen was FOURTH in the 1999 World Championship.

Feb. 2000 T&FN p.21:

"CLAUSEN MADE HUGE NEWS, becoming the first American to place in the Rankings (either walk) since Ron Laird was No. 4 in the 20 in '74."

I had forgotten about this excellent achievement. Thanks for the reminder.

Clausen was moved up to 3rd after a drug test positive. It took over 2 years for him to get his medal & the money he was owed. Interestingly enough, that same cheater died in 2008. Makes you wonder WTF they had this guy on that it killed him so young.

Thanks, I missed that.

[MJR]

Re: 30 medals?

Small correction -- Curt Clausen was FOURTH in the 1999 World Championship.

Feb. 2000 T&FN p.21:

"CLAUSEN MADE HUGE NEWS, becoming the first American to place in the Rankings (either walk) since Ron Laird was No. 4 in the 20 in '74."

I had forgotten about this excellent achievement. Thanks for the reminder.

Clausen was moved up to 3rd after a drug test positive. It took over 2 years for him to get his medal & the money he was owed. Interestingly enough, that same cheater died in 2008. Makes you wonder WTF they had this guy on that it killed him so young.

[Gleason]

Re: 30 medals?

Small correction -- Curt Clausen was FOURTH in the 1999 World Championship.

Feb. 2000 T&FN p.21:

"CLAUSEN MADE HUGE NEWS, becoming the first American to place in the Rankings (either walk) since Ron Laird was No. 4 in the 20 in '74."

I had forgotten about this excellent achievement. Thanks for the reminder.

[Dave]

Re: 30 medals?

If you look at the men’s events (24) there are at least 11 (1500, SC, 5k, 10k, Mar, 2 walks, TJ, Discus, Hammer and Jav) in which we are likely not to be any more successful at garnering medals (0) than we were in Beijing.

On the women’s side (23 events) there are at least 13 events (800, 1500, SC, 5K 10K, Mar, walk, HJ, TJ, SP, Discus, Hammer and Jav) in which we are not likely to do any better (even though we medaled in both the discus and the 10k, it is hard to argue that we will be that successful in 2012).

The only reason there is no chance to win medals in the Walks is that no one is willing to let it happen. Yes, I said let it happen. In 97, we formed a training group on 6 athletes in Chula Vista (way before the Team USA distance stuff btw). Their budget was about 30k/year, and a good chunk of that came from the Army WCAP. What happened? 99 WC 50km Bronze & a 7th place 2 years later, a few Pan Am Games medals & a complete rewrite of the US RW record books. What was the response to a program that worked better %-wise & impact per dollar than any other program is US history (for any event)? Remove the funding to pay for the National Relays program. We know how well that worked!
....

This post speaks to honest to goodness strategy for improving World Championship/Olympic results. This is precisely the sort of strategy that should be addressed by the USATF. The basic assumption should be that with a reasonable, and in this case quite modest, investment, more talent will be developed to a higher level. This properly sets aside the question of luck and impact of the one's opinion of the process of selecting a team. The focus here is making sure that talent is developed so that we have capable people in more events than the sprints, hurdles, and a couple field events.

[MJR]

Re: 30 medals?

If you look at the men’s events (24) there are at least 11 (1500, SC, 5k, 10k, Mar, 2 walks, TJ, Discus, Hammer and Jav) in which we are likely not to be any more successful at garnering medals (0) than we were in Beijing.

On the women’s side (23 events) there are at least 13 events (800, 1500, SC, 5K 10K, Mar, walk, HJ, TJ, SP, Discus, Hammer and Jav) in which we are not likely to do any better (even though we medaled in both the discus and the 10k, it is hard to argue that we will be that successful in 2012).

The only reason there is no chance to win medals in the Walks is that no one is willing to let it happen. Yes, I said let it happen. In 97, we formed a training group on 6 athletes in Chula Vista (way before the Team USA distance stuff btw). Their budget was about 30k/year, and a good chunk of that came from the Army WCAP. What happened? 99 WC 50km Bronze & a 7th place 2 years later, a few Pan Am Games medals & a complete rewrite of the US RW record books. What was the response to a program that worked better %-wise & impact per dollar than any other program is US history (for any event)? Remove the funding to pay for the National Relays program. We know how well that worked!

In a nation of 300 million people, the only reason we cannot and do not medal in any event in this sport is 100% because the people who make the decisions in the NCAA & USATF are unwilling & uninterested in actually achieving success in that event. When the athletes fail to win, they need to realize that pointing at that person still leaves 3 fingers pointing back at them.

[lonewolf]

Buying foreign athletes does not bring any prestige to the purchasing country. It does give world class athletes an opportunity to make a living that is denied in their home nation by the plethora of talent. They are not fooling anyone. Let 'em be.

[sprintblox]

does women's tennis only allow 3 russians at wimbledon ?

does women's golf only allow 3 koreans at the US Open ?

The WAF, Golden League, Pre Classic, and the other big T&F professional competitions aren't restricted to 3 per country.

But guess what, Olympic tennis does have a per-country limit.

That per-country thing has already been debated to death in a number of existing threads.

[eldrick]

i see no reason at all not to encourage movement of athletes to middle east countries

- they make more money than in kenya/morocco/etc

- they get around ridiculous rules allowing only 3 competitors/nation for each event - kenya coud probably provide a 4th string who's an 8'02 guy & it's ridiculous he can't compete when the best non-kenyan guy in the world may only be 8'05

if we see a dozen kenyans entered under different flags for the 1500 in london '12, i'd be very happy as being "amongst the best athletes in the world" shoud allow you to run on the big stage regardless of where you were born & not discriminated against by 3/country rule

does women's tennis only allow 3 russians at wimbledon ?

does women's golf only allow 3 koreans at the US Open ?

[sprintblox]

The main question is the extent to which Lagat and other immigrants like Meb and Sanya Richards and Kerron Clement are indicative of future US talent.

The US accepts about 1 million legal immigrants per year, and the above athletes were part of that natural flow. They wanted to live in the US, and they followed the same long path that common people followed to become citizens, living as legal residents for years and going through background checks and paperwork and interviews. No special exceptions were made for them because of their athletic ability.

But with Bahrain, the athletes they "bought" are generally those who wouldn't want to be residents or citizens of Bahrain if Bahrain wasn't rewarding them for their sporting ability, and Bahrain wouldn't accept them if they weren't world class athletes.

Conclusion: the naturalized citizens on the US team are much more indicative of the future than Bahrain's instant citizens. The US will continue to attract and accept a million legal immigrants every year, and out of that million there will be a few who can be world beaters, whether they are a distance runner from Mexico or Kenya, a sprinter from Jamaica or Nigeria, or a thrower from Germany or Poland. Whereas Bahrain's future ability to win medals is largely dependent on their willingness and ability to keep paying for new athletic citizens, and the athletes' desire to accept such a deal.

[Marlow]

Obviously you suggested I said he wasn't a 'true American', otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to write that. Then you brought Barack Obama into the argument and proceeded to talk of the Bahrainis having no emotional ties to their adopted country. Now, none of this has anything in common with what I said, which is that Lagat is not a product of the US system any more than Kipketer is of the Danish. Both arrived in their adopted countries at a similar age and it was there they developed into world beaters, but the groundwork was laid in Kenya.

My apologies then. The world is becoming increasingly mobile and the original 'American Experience' (starting over in a new country) is becoming globalized. What Lagat did is exactly what most Americans did. What the 'Bahrainis' did, is not.

[Powell]

Racism never crossed my puny mind.

This is what you said in response to my argument:

There's no need to take him out; he's an American, exactly like the rest of us (the President is also a Kenyan-American, I believe).

Obviously you suggested I said he wasn't a 'true American', otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to write that. Then you brought Barack Obama into the argument and proceeded to talk of the Bahrainis having no emotional ties to their adopted country. Now, none of this has anything in common with what I said, which is that Lagat is not a product of the US system any more than Kipketer is of the Danish. Both arrived in their adopted countries at a similar age and it was there they developed into world beaters, but the groundwork was laid in Kenya.

[Marlow]

I make a huge distinction between Lagat, who did essentially the same thing our own forebears did, move here for a better future, and the guns-for-hire, who show up in Bahrainian uniforms and 'take the money and run'.

Aren't the Kenyan-turned-Bahrainis simply 'taking the money' in order to provide their families with a better future also?

Indeed they are; the difference is 'the contract'. They switched nationalities expressly for athletic reasons, were compensated for it, received citizenship in a brisk manner, and the expectation was always for athletic success. Does that sound like Lagat's case? How long was Lagat a resident here before he put on our singlet? How long were they? It's an important distinction (to me at least). I also applaud people like Felix Sanchez who are brought up in one country, but feel an affiliation with another and decide to run for them.

Let me make it clear that I personally have no problem with the gun-for-hire approach - that's between them and the country involved. To do otherwise would be restraint of trade in my book.

[Jon]

I make a huge distinction between Lagat, who did essentially the same thing our own forebears did, move here for a better future, and the guns-for-hire, who show up in Bahrainian uniforms and 'take the money and run'.

Aren't the Kenyan-turned-Bahrainis simply 'taking the money' in order to provide their families with a better future also?

[Marlow]

You seem to somehow imply racism in my argument where there was none. I have no problem whatsoever with Lagat representing the US - just saying his success cannot be used as a predictor of American distance medals in the future. Unless, that is, you're assuming continued inflow of top African talent to the US in the future.

Racism never crossed my puny mind. As far as an influx of 'top' African talent continuing to immigrate goes, didn't we just see that in the boys' Footlocker Champion?

[Powell]

There's no need to take him out; he's an American, exactly like the rest of us (the President is also a Kenyan-American, I believe). As such, he totally 'represents' recent American distance fortunes. I make a huge distinction between Lagat, who did essentially the same thing our own forebears did, move here for a better future, and the guns-for-hire, who show up in Bahrainian uniforms and 'take the money and run'.

Again, the exact same thing could be said about Kipketer being Danish. You seem to somehow imply racism in my argument where there was none. I have no problem whatsoever with Lagat representing the US - just saying his success cannot be used as a predictor of American distance medals in the future. Unless, that is, you're assuming continued inflow of top African talent to the US in the future.