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Record times 440 yard dash vs 400 meters

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  • 26mi235
    replied
    Originally posted by Marlow
    Originally posted by Wmbgskip
    I think the calculation goes like this (153 of Big Gold Book)
    49.8
    + .14 Hand-to-auto = 49.94
    x .9942 for conversion to 400m = 49.65 seconds.
    I may be reading the book too literally, but there's an option.
    --Skip
    Both the .14 and .9942 imply greater accuracy than is possible with a hand-time. Any conversion of a hand time should stay as a hand-time. Adding .14 for a 400 may be useful to put it in a list of times (best 400 in school history), but I would show it thusly:

    51.03
    51.04
    50.9' (51.2y)
    50.9
    51.05

    with a notation of conversions at the end
    because the initial time has broad 'error bands' does not mean that the given measurement is not the best estimate of the true value, and using precise values to make transformations also avoids adding 'noise' (and bias) to conversions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gleason
    replied
    Originally posted by dukehjsteve
    Good info just above Gleason. Allan was sort of an idol of mine, as well as every other younger runner in town; he was 2 years ahead of me. His younger brother was in my class and was a super tennis player... NY State champ. Both very fine guys that I am sure have gone on to do well in life. Have not seen/heard from either in over 40 years. I knew Allan had left Cornell and gone to Foothill but that was the end of my info line.

    As to a "soph" record, not so... he was a junior in 1958 when he ran that 4:22.6.

    He only started running at all as a sophomore, in Track... did not even run CC the prior fall. As a total running neophite, he ran 4:27.0 as a sophomore, in 1957. 2 time State champ in CC , also mile state champ as a junior, got upset as a senior by Bob Petrovich of Carey, but Allen got him the next week in the Easterns with his 4;21.0.
    Thanks for the correction. I was under the impression that he had been a soph in 1958. I last saw Allan in 1967. He was working for an airline & studying for an MBA at Santa Clara in the evening. I assume that he has done well.

    Leave a comment:


  • greinkd
    replied
    I just looked up USATF High School Records and saw that there are eight symbols listed to signify records being broken under different reasons. Here are a few:

    y = race run at yard distance
    int'l = international-weight throwing implement
    h = hand-timed
    i = made indoors
    p = mark still pending ratification

    I saw that Jim Ryun ran the mile at an HS event in 1965. It is an American HS Record to this day for a race run at a HS event. The mile time was 3:58.3 and the 1500 meter was converted to the 3:44.0. I don’t know what conversion method was used.

    I also found the many records were measure to the tenth of a sec. and some were measured to the one hundredth and that the mile and two mile are listed as records while anything lower is recorded in meters.

    The 110 high hurdles had several things factoring into why they were in the record book:

    110H(39").13.30..Chris Nelloms (Dunbar,Dayton, Ohio....5/26/90
    13.22y.Arthur Blake (Haines City, Florida) 5/11/84
    12.9hy.Renaldo Nehemiah (Scotch Plains-Fanwood,5/30/77
    110H(42")13.83*. Glenn Terry (Sycamore, Cincinnati Ohio .6/11/89
    13.5h* Renaldo Nehemiah (Scotch Plains-Fanwood, SP, NJ)7/2/77

    Leave a comment:


  • dukehjsteve
    replied
    Good info just above Gleason. Allan was sort of an idol of mine, as well as every other younger runner in town; he was 2 years ahead of me. His younger brother was in my class and was a super tennis player... NY State champ. Both very fine guys that I am sure have gone on to do well in life. Have not seen/heard from either in over 40 years. I knew Allan had left Cornell and gone to Foothill but that was the end of my info line.

    As to a "soph" record, not so... he was a junior in 1958 when he ran that 4:22.6.

    He only started running at all as a sophomore, in Track... did not even run CC the prior fall. As a total running neophite, he ran 4:27.0 as a sophomore, in 1957. 2 time State champ in CC , also mile state champ as a junior, got upset as a senior by Bob Petrovich of Carey, but Allen got him the next week in the Easterns with his 4;21.0.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gleason
    replied
    Originally posted by dj
    Originally posted by dukehjsteve
    Originally posted by dj
    Originally posted by dukehjsteve
    My old high school back in NY had a super, super runner in 1959... he ran 4:21.0 in the mile ( 10th best in USA HS that year) and also ran a half mile in 1:56.8.

    I recently procured the current listing of my HS' records... they have listed a 1600 meters of 4:21.4 and an 800 meters of 1:56.8, both in the last 15 years. It appears they have blythely decided to ignore old yardage marks... even though they are longer !!! I've diplomatically advised the current coach of all this but who knows what they will do, if anything.
    And now we surmise that dukehjsteve went to Huntington HS on Long Island!
    You are dangerous, dj. None of us are safe now.
    Allan Chapman? Eastern States mile champ that year. Wasn't multi-talent jumper Henry Jackson (WnKy?) also from Huntington, about 6-7 years later? Same coach? Good program.
    I ran with Allan Chapman at Foothill JC 1961 - 1962. He had run at Cornell as a Frosh, but when his family moved to Silicon Valley he changed schools. He had set the Soph record of 4:22.6 in 1958, but T&FN didn't list classes then, so he wasn't mentioned as the record holder. I don't know when class records began. He finished his college career at Stanford.

    Leave a comment:


  • dukehjsteve
    replied
    Originally posted by tandfman
    Oh, c'mon, Steve. You've outted yourself before.

    http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... hp?t=28459
    tandfman, thanks for pulling up that old thread. We had fun with that one, didn't we ?!

    Leave a comment:


  • dukehjsteve
    replied
    Originally posted by dj
    Originally posted by dukehjsteve
    Originally posted by dj
    Originally posted by dukehjsteve
    My old high school back in NY had a super, super runner in 1959... he ran 4:21.0 in the mile ( 10th best in USA HS that year) and also ran a half mile in 1:56.8.

    I recently procured the current listing of my HS' records... they have listed a 1600 meters of 4:21.4 and an 800 meters of 1:56.8, both in the last 15 years. It appears they have blythely decided to ignore old yardage marks... even though they are longer !!! I've diplomatically advised the current coach of all this but who knows what they will do, if anything.
    And now we surmise that dukehjsteve went to Huntington HS on Long Island!
    You are dangerous, dj. None of us are safe now.
    Allan Chapman? Eastern States mile champ that year. Wasn't multi-talent jumper Henry Jackson (WnKy?) also from Huntington, about 6-7 years later? Same coach? Good program.
    Absolutely 100 % correct on both points dj ! And Jackson broke MY high jump 1961 school record of ( don't laugh) 5'10 3/4", first with a 6'1" in 1965 and then with a 6'7" in 1966. Talk about a record being obliterated ! His SR in the 3J in 1966 is still standing... 46'4 1/2" . Believe he was NY State champ in both HJ and 3J that year.Different coach though. Mine and Allan's was Ernie Mueller. New guy , Doug Bush or Brush, took over in about '64.

    Leave a comment:


  • dj
    replied
    Originally posted by dukehjsteve
    Originally posted by dj
    Originally posted by dukehjsteve
    My old high school back in NY had a super, super runner in 1959... he ran 4:21.0 in the mile ( 10th best in USA HS that year) and also ran a half mile in 1:56.8.

    I recently procured the current listing of my HS' records... they have listed a 1600 meters of 4:21.4 and an 800 meters of 1:56.8, both in the last 15 years. It appears they have blythely decided to ignore old yardage marks... even though they are longer !!! I've diplomatically advised the current coach of all this but who knows what they will do, if anything.
    And now we surmise that dukehjsteve went to Huntington HS on Long Island!
    You are dangerous, dj. None of us are safe now.
    Allan Chapman? Eastern States mile champ that year. Wasn't multi-talent jumper Henry Jackson (WnKy?) also from Huntington, about 6-7 years later? Same coach? Good program.

    Leave a comment:


  • tandfman
    replied
    Oh, c'mon, Steve. You've outted yourself before.

    http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... hp?t=28459

    Leave a comment:


  • dukehjsteve
    replied
    Originally posted by dj
    Originally posted by dukehjsteve
    My old high school back in NY had a super, super runner in 1959... he ran 4:21.0 in the mile ( 10th best in USA HS that year) and also ran a half mile in 1:56.8.

    I recently procured the current listing of my HS' records... they have listed a 1600 meters of 4:21.4 and an 800 meters of 1:56.8, both in the last 15 years. It appears they have blythely decided to ignore old yardage marks... even though they are longer !!! I've diplomatically advised the current coach of all this but who knows what they will do, if anything.
    And now we surmise that dukehjsteve went to Huntington HS on Long Island!
    You are dangerous, dj. None of us are safe now.

    Leave a comment:


  • eldrick
    replied
    not to be also nitpicky, but that 0.9942 is a simple proportion ratio & is actually a bit high

    ( it's a similar scenario to converting a mile time to a 1500 one by just using proportion ratio of 1500/1609.344 or 0.932, which gives wrongfully slow results, whereas generally accepted conversion is 1/1.08 = 0.926 )

    more realistic is 0.9932 - 0.9936 which is ~ 0.03 - 0.05s difference, which isn't much, but maybe is when the ole 440y & new 400m records are close, it means something to some one

    i'm suggesting 0.33 - 0.35s is a better conversion than 0.30s

    Leave a comment:


  • rainy.here
    replied
    Originally posted by greinkd

    I read an excellent article on 440 times vs the 400 meters. They list the conversion time as 0.3 seconds. It really puts things in perspective

    http://speedendurance.com/2007/07/20/44 ... d-figures/
    I hate to nit-pick, but that article has incorrect information. It says that
    440y=402.56m, which is incorrect (but not by much).
    440y=402.336m (exactly).

    The 0.3 seconds is a pretty good indicator, except that tracks used for 400m and tracks that were used for 440y are quite different.

    Leave a comment:


  • dj
    replied
    Originally posted by dukehjsteve
    My old high school back in NY had a super, super runner in 1959... he ran 4:21.0 in the mile ( 10th best in USA HS that year) and also ran a half mile in 1:56.8.

    I recently procured the current listing of my HS' records... they have listed a 1600 meters of 4:21.4 and an 800 meters of 1:56.8, both in the last 15 years. It appears they have blythely decided to ignore old yardage marks... even though they are longer !!! I've diplomatically advised the current coach of all this but who knows what they will do, if anything.
    And now we surmise that dukehjsteve went to Huntington HS on Long Island!

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by greinkd
    1. I ran a 49.8 440 yard dash hand timed in 1966 and would like to convert that to 400 meter FAT time.
    2. I assume most 400 meter HS meets were FAT timed in 1993
    3. Also if possible could someone convert a 400 meter FAT time to a 440 yard hand time.
    1. 49.8y = 49.5'm, nothing more. In a list it would come after 49.64m and before 49.65m
    2. NO.
    3. 50.00m FAT = 50.30y = 50.16'h = 50.2y

    Leave a comment:


  • greinkd
    replied
    Im getting some terrific feedback, but I ran the quarter mile a lot better than i do the math, so could someone plug in my numbers to give me the proper conversion time.

    I ran a 49.8 440 yard dash hand timed in 1966 and would like to convert that to 400 meter FAT time.

    I assume most 400 meter HS meets were FAT timed in 1993

    Also if possible could someone convert a 400 meter FAT time of 49.5 to a 440 yard hand time.

    Leave a comment:

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