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  • #31
    Originally posted by Marlow
    HS kids fall just as easily with with zero weight hurdles!
    But harder when the weight is at the wrong end.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Daisy
      Originally posted by Marlow
      HS kids fall just as easily with with zero weight hurdles!
      But harder when the weight is at the wrong end.
      Do they get style point deductions for how hard they fall??

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      • #33
        Well in one case they get flung backwards, but if the weights are forward at least they fall in the right direction. Add in a forward roll and sure, they can get style points.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Daisy
          Well in one case they get flung backwards, but if the weights are forward at least they fall in the right direction. Add in a forward roll and sure, they can get style points.
          ??!! I can't figure out what you mean by 'flung backwards'. If the weights aren't set right, it simply makes it easier/harder to tip, but no one gets flung anywhere.

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          • #35
            Are you telling me the little kids with no momentum can knock down a hurdle with the weights at the very tip. OK, flung back is an exaggeration but do they actually knock them down?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Marlow
              Originally posted by Daisy
              Well in one case they get flung backwards, but if the weights are forward at least they fall in the right direction. Add in a forward roll and sure, they can get style points.
              ??!! I can't figure out what you mean by 'flung backwards'. If the weights aren't set right, it simply makes it easier/harder to tip, but no one gets flung anywhere.
              Pat: I am surprised at your position on this issue. In hurdling, you have to get used to hurdling the barriers and not jumping them. If you get smashed when you hit the hurdle it does not improve your hurdling. This is what happens to the girls because the weights are set too high. Look at how much more clearance women/girls have then men. I find the most discrepancy with the settings for womens/girls hurdles.

              Aside from the issue of being set too 'resistant' the hurdles should be consistent for the athlete to learn the event properly. Properly does not mean never touching the hurdle at any point in practice or race.

              Besides, it is a rule, and for good reason. You do not argue that athletes should not be DQed for passing just inches outside the exchange zone or only step on the line a little or react just a little bit too early. Why would the rule about the proper weight of the hurdles be any different and why should an official in the event not have as a primary focus having the correct settings?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by 26mi235
                Pat: I am surprised at your position on this issue. . . . [followed by lots of good points which I agree with . . .]
                but . . . once again (cf. the mile vs. 1600 debate (sic)) we're dealing with the reality of HS hurdling. We have rocker hurdles with NO variable weight system at all, as do most of the HSs around here. Even in the local college meets, I NEVER see them adjusting the weights when they move from the w100H to the m110H! It's simply too much of a hassle. In the big meets, I appreciate it when meet management does it the 'right' way. but they are in the overwhelming minority!

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Marlow
                  ...we're dealing with the reality of HS hurdling. We have rocker hurdles with NO variable weight system at all, as do most of the HSs around here. Even in the local college meets, I NEVER see them adjusting the weights when they move from the w100H to the m110H! It's simply too much of a hassle.
                  In practice how are the hurdles set - are they too easy for the boys or too hard for the girls? Often it right for the boys and wrong for the girls (at least that is what I have generally seen) and I think it would be better to be the other way around -- although I am not a coach and this is just a guess.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 26mi235
                    In practice how are the hurdles set - are they too easy for the boys or too hard for the girls? Often it right for the boys and wrong for the girls (at least that is what I have generally seen) and I think it would be better to be the other way around -- although I am not a coach and this is just a guess.
                    I think you are grossly overestimating the difference. My boys and girls fall at the same rate, if they hit it in similar ways. But it's not as if kids are falling all over the place. I'd say each kid averages about 2-3 falls a year and none are ever serious - just some skinned knees, hands and backs.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by gh
                      If the athletes had had foreknowledge of the setup, i agree they might maximize their effort, but since in this instance everybody in the race had a "WTF?!!!" moment, I think we can safely assume this was a hindrance, not an aid.
                      Is it inconceivable that one of the hurdlers actually benefited by running 55 meters unimpeded by a hurdle between 8 and 9?

                      Out of curiosity. How would T&FN have treated a WR time by Clement in the Carson race?
                      Since it would never have been ratified as a WR would T&FN still have used it for "Statistical purposes" in the yearly list?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Per Andersen
                        Originally posted by gh
                        If the athletes had had foreknowledge of the setup, i agree they might maximize their effort, but since in this instance everybody in the race had a "WTF?!!!" moment, I think we can safely assume this was a hindrance, not an aid.
                        Is it inconceivable that one of the hurdlers actually benefited by running 55 meters unimpeded by a hurdle between 8 and 9?

                        Out of curiosity. How would T&FN have treated a WR time by Clement in the Carson race?
                        Since it would never have been ratified as a WR would T&FN still have used it for "Statistical purposes" in the yearly list?
                        Per, I almost always agree with you but not on this one, especially in terms of assessing the quality of the mark. The athletes had no preparation and does not reasonably know where the next hurdle is in the sense of practice/familiarity. The likelihood that a badly misplaced hurdle helps either get that hurdle or the next one clear efficiently is so close to zero that there is no quantitative or qualitative difference from zero.

                        gh never said anything about accepting it as a WR, which is a little different than accepting it as a mark that they take into consideration when assessing the season.

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                        • #42
                          FWIW, USATF has recognized the mark in its weekly list of top US performances. (See Athlete of the Week headline on the front page.)

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                          • #43
                            At the risk of sounding like one of those 'you-had-to-do-it-to-have-an-opinion-on-it' pests, as someone who actually ran the event in college, you'll have to trust me when I say that a misplaced hurdle could greatly help one hurdler and greatly hinder another. This was not a 400H race; it was a mistake - not a big deal mistake, but not statistically valid.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Marlow
                              a misplaced hurdle could greatly help one hurdler and greatly hinder another
                              Maybe you should spell it out. At the elite level when, in theory, the athletes have specific stride patterns, how could this help them?

                              Are you trying to say that Clement, who is known to stutter step, might have hit this hurdle more cleanly in the wrong configuration compared to the normal configuration? I think the chances of that are pretty slim, as described by 26mi235 above.

                              By the way, what was Clement's time?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Why not leave the marks on the lists and remove the competition from ranking consideration at this point in the season. Hindsight is likely going to be a much better judge come October than most/any of us. If they look anomalous at the end of the season (to the good) they could be pulled then.

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