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  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Originally posted by Marlow
    Originally posted by TrackDaddy
    Can you separate someone's religion from their culture?
    Not someone, an entire country. We are faulting a culture (rightfully so IMO), but they (the Saudi regime (king)) are under the assumption that God (Allah) has dictated this circumstance in the Quran.
    I wouldn't say that King Abdullah supports all of these restrictions on women. A few years ago, he floated the idea of allowing women to drive, and the backlash from the Islamic fundamentalists was severe enough for him to cancel the idea.
    The drivers agree that under King Abdullah, Saudi women have made progress in terms of expanding educational opportunities and growing access to jobs. But the king, who has said that allowing women to drive is a social, not a religious, issue, has so far not moved to lift the ban. Al Bakr says it may be a matter of priorities for the king.

    "At the practical level, King Abdullah is working in a quiet way to support women," al Bakr says. "But when it comes, unfortunately, to the driving, it's just too much headache, and that's why I think King Abdullah doesn't want it — because he has more important issues."
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=97541372
    King Abdullah's daughter, Princess Adela, had given an interview to the Saudi-owned pan-Arab al-Hayat newspaper, in which she endorsed both women driving and female appointments to the country's unelected government advisory body. . . . Princess Adela is believed to be not the only female member of King Abdullah's family who is in favor of women driving. Abdullah's public caution masks private approval. Support in such high places may have been behind the brave attempt in May by a lone member of the consultative council to turn a discussion on traffic safety into a national debate overturning the ban.
    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/temp ... p?CID=2383

    Also, Iran is holding its Presidential election next week, and the opposition candidate who is trying to unseat Ahmadinejad is running on a platform of more rights for women and disbanding the morality police.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8075603.stm

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  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by sprintblox
    the males in some Muslim-dominated countries are using Islam as a way to convince the people to adhere to their invented restrictions and get the government to enforce them.
    Not invented . . . interpreted. I honestly believe the Saudis are interpreting the Quran in a 'faithful' manner, just as some ante-bellum Americans used the Old Testament to justify slavery. They actually thought they were being good devout Christians. You can see it today in gay issues. Some churches back gay rights, some say it's an abomination.

    Leave a comment:


  • sprintblox
    replied
    Religion can be used to control people. If the religion has a hierarchical structure and you are in a senior position, you can use that position to convince people that their god requires or bans a particular behavior, even if there is nothing in the relevant religious texts banning or requiring the given behavior. And if the government is intertwined with that religion, you can get the government to enforce your stance.

    So it's not that Islam requires these restrictions on women; it's that the males in some Muslim-dominated countries are using Islam as a way to convince the people to adhere to their invented restrictions and get the government to enforce them. After the government has enforced the rule long enough, most of the followers of the religion become convinced that the rule is actually handed down from their god.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by TrackDaddy
    Can you separate someone's religion from their culture?
    Not someone, an entire country. We are faulting a culture (rightfully so IMO), but they (the Saudi regime (king)) are under the assumption that God (Allah) has dictated this circumstance in the Quran.

    Leave a comment:


  • TrackDaddy
    replied
    Originally posted by Marlow
    Am I correct in thinking this is a religious issue and not a cultural one? I realize other Islamic countries allow women to compete, but SA is pretty strict on this sort of thing. How do we dictate religious beliefs to them? That said, they probably WILL change their ways, because they want their men to compete, so a little behavior modification is just the ticket to have them rethink their ideas.
    Can you separate someone's religion from their culture?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mighty Favog
    replied
    My knowledge of Islam is only from that absorbed in a heavily Middle Eastern city and from watching the news. (Our cable has Al-Jazeera but I've basically never watched it.)

    Morocco is a Muslim nation and not only doesn't put up significant barriers to women competing in track, they've got a female who is one of the IOC's power brokers. I don't buy the religion argument any more than I bought it in regards to southern anti-miscegenation laws.

    It might be considered finger-pointing to be hard on the Saudis for this, considering that women didn't get the right to vote in the US until 56 years after slaves did, and were not guaranteed equal access to education until 18 years after blacks did. But the IOC once made a decision that explicitly treating certain races as inferiors was something unacceptable in civilized society (over Brundage's objections), and I don't see anything different here.

    Leave a comment:


  • lonewolf
    replied
    Originally posted by paulthefan
    [ . We could use a Muslim expert to bridge the divide here. My very limited experience is that kind and good hearted Muslims support these restrictions.
    I am not Muslim and do not claim to be an expert on Islam but I published the political/personal biography by an expatriate Iranian woman, a devout Muslim and ardent opponent of the current Iranian regime, who has become a frequent guest expert on national television and a consultant and advisor to US Congressmen and Senators.
    Although she is multi-lingual and fluent in English, I have edited all her English language publications for the past eight years, including her religious blogs and articles, learning more than I ever expected about Islam.

    She has direct satellite televison to the Middle East and contacts at all levels in Europe and the Middle East, particularly Iran. She is spokesperson for Iranian political prisoners and knows street stuff before CNN does; much of which CNN does not report, presumably out of political correctness.

    A simple example of cultural vs. religious custom is the veil for women, which, I am told by Islamic experts, is no where prescribed in the Koran.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daisy
    replied
    http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD237709

    Leave a comment:


  • BillVol
    replied
    So is anyone going to provide a link to this article?

    Leave a comment:


  • paulthefan
    replied
    Originally posted by rasb
    I predict a force much more powerful.. the women in some of these countries will come to the realization that they are being treated as 2nd or 3rd class citizens. And they won't take it anymore, ...
    very possibly just the opposite is the case, demographics is destiny and population densities and movements would point to western values losing.


    Originally posted by lonewolf
    Not just women but the youth and the general population of Iran, for instance, overwhelmingly oppose the cultural, non-Islamic restrictions of the ruling Islamic theocracy. Many anti-regime demonstrations go unreported as Goliath keeps slapping David down.
    is it really the case that "Islam" does not recognize these restrictions, that the non-Islamic Imams are forcing this on Islam?.. that is intriguing history. We could use a Muslim expert to bridge the divide here. My very limited experience is that kind and good hearted Muslims support these restrictions.

    Leave a comment:


  • lonewolf
    replied
    Originally posted by rasb
    Soon, hopefully very soon, the women in some of these countries will come to the realization that they are being treated as 2nd or 3rd class citizens. And they won't take it anymore, as they shouldn't. And the uprising will blow the robes off the male pigs, and not in the way that they imagined. "Hell hath no fury'......
    Muslim women already realize that and many are trying to educate the rest about their rights but it is an uphill battle against 7th Century male chauvanism. Not just women but the youth and the general population of Iran, for instance, overwhelmingly oppose the cultural, non-Islamic restrictions of the ruling Islamic theocracy. Many anti-regime demonstrations go unreported as Goliath keeps slapping David down.

    Leave a comment:


  • jhc68
    replied
    So, Marlow, sending Amy Acuff on an educational tour of Islamic nations would be premature at this time?

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by rasb
    And the uprising will blow the robes off the male pigs, and not in the way that they imagined. "Hell hath no fury'......
    It took USA women all the way into the 1970s to make a real statement, and they were light years ahead of Saudi women.

    Leave a comment:


  • rasb
    replied
    I predict a force much more powerful than oil.....Soon, hopefully very soon, the women in some of these countries will come to the realization that they are being treated as 2nd or 3rd class citizens. And they won't take it anymore, as they shouldn't. And the uprising will blow the robes off the male pigs, and not in the way that they imagined. "Hell hath no fury'......

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by sprintblox
    What would matter much more is if the US and Europe stopped buying oil from them.
    Over whether they allow women to compete??!! Yeah, that'll happen!

    Leave a comment:

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