NCAA At Large Selections

[HigherEd]

The process of selection

Here is how it works for individuals

First, all 20 declared automatic qualifiers from the regional championships are entered. Then one more athlete is entered across the board in all 19 events. You keep adding a layer across all events until you can't add another complete layer. At that point athletes are entered from a priority list. That priority list is a rank order of strongest event through weakest event. The next athlete available, plus ties is added to the field. Some years there are multiple ties. The cap is 544 athletes per gender and the count is constantly looked at. An athlete can preference an event (I want to run the 5K if I get in that event, but will run the 10K if I don't get accepted in the 5K). Preferences cause major havoc with the selection process. The current process with automatic qualifiers and at-large qualifiers is complex. An athlete who finishes 15th at regionals can slowly move up through scratches, preferences and end up 12th, which then gets them in the at-large pool. Athletes are rank order based on their seasonal best performance.

[jazzcyclist]

Yeh, what's the point of inviting 18 relay teams? Just like indoors with the men's dmr, many of these teams will not be competitive.

Outdoors the relays are short and you can have rounds; indoors the DMR is the only relay and you cannot have rounds. Different animals. Also, unlike the sprints, there is not a wind-aided element in the 4xX00, although there is the time/strategy issue in the 4x400 (better teams can keep from burning their matches a bit (is a single replacement allowed?).

I believe that two replacements are allowed in relays. In 2006 "X-Man" and Willie didn't run 4x400 relay prelims at NCAA.

In fact they didn't run 4x400 between PennR and NCAA finals. They skipped SEC, Regionals and NCAA heat.

A little more info:
In 2006, LSU was undefeated in the 4x400 outdoors (9-0). On three of those occasions (Texas Relays, Penn Relays and NCAA's), the final was preceded by a heat, meaning that they ran a total of 12 times that outdoor season. Those three finals were the only time that LSU ran their "A" team (with Willie and X-man) all year. LSU's "B" team (sans Willie & X-man) was the fastest qualifier for the NCAA's, and there is no doubt in my mind that they could have won the NCAA title without X-man and Willie. I doubt that even Baylor has ever been that deep in the 4x400. The plan was to lower their year-old NCAA record, and everything was going according to plan halfway through the race, but it all went up in smoke when the third leg went out in 20.5, though LSU still held on to win by a comfortable margin.

[gh]

Yeh, what's the point of inviting 18 relay teams? Just like indoors with the men's dmr, many of these teams will not be competitive.

Imagine how much better the NCAA would be without the relays at all? All those extra bodies to deserving people in individual events.

The NCAA should crown national relay champions in ALL the relays, and could rotate the events between Penn & Drake.

Put some truth behind Penn's claim of "relay championship of America"

[Gleason]

Yeh, what's the point of inviting 18 relay teams? Just like indoors with the men's dmr, many of these teams will not be competitive.

Outdoors the relays are short and you can have rounds; indoors the DMR is the only relay and you cannot have rounds. Different animals. Also, unlike the sprints, there is not a wind-aided element in the 4xX00, although there is the time/strategy issue in the 4x400 (better teams can keep from burning their matches a bit (is a single replacement allowed?).

I believe that two replacements are allowed in relays. In 2006 "X-Man" and Willie didn't run 4x400 relay prelims at NCAA.

In fact they didn't run 4x400 between PennR and NCAA finals. They skipped SEC, Regionals and NCAA heat.

[26mi235]

Yeh, what's the point of inviting 18 relay teams? Just like indoors with the men's dmr, many of these teams will not be competitive.

Outdoors the relays are short and you can have rounds; indoors the DMR is the only relay and you cannot have rounds. Different animals. Also, unlike the sprints, there is not a wind-aided element in the 4xX00, although there is the time/strategy issue in the 4x400 (better teams can keep from burning their matches a bit (is a single replacement allowed?).

[Bruce Kritzler]

Yeh, what's the point of inviting 18 relay teams? Just like indoors with the men's dmr, many of these teams will not be competitive.

[gh]

This year's men's sprints: 29, 26, 26.

women : 26, 28, 27

On first blush, I'd say the individual events overall have fewer entrants than last year.

[26mi235]

...
Also consider than if you are the next person on the list in a given event, and you are already in the meet for another event, the committee will often add you, provided the field size can handle it. This is how you will end up with large 100, 200, 400 fields, as many guys in the at-large pool are already in the meet on relays.

Doesn't seem to work exactly that way. While there were 30 men in the 200 last year, there were 26 in both the 100 and 400.

On the women's side the numbers were 30 in the 200, 28 for the 100 and 400.

So 4/6 sprint fields were same size as all other events, 2 had a pair of people extra. And never "large" since there were always empty lanes in the first round.

This makes perfect sense. The 200 runners can do both the 4x400 and the 4x100, so if a team qualifies in either one, they are more likely to get in to the 200, while the 100 and 400 do not as often cross two distance doubling factors (X-man types are rare and anyone that good is usually in in one of the events 'directly'). In addition, they can qualify in the 100 or in the 400 in a similar manner, although doubling 100/200 and especially 200/400 is probably harder than 200/4xX00.

[KevinM]

Guess I should have said "could" end up with large fields. Or "larger fields than those events would normally merit".

Note that if the next athletes on the list after 544 are reached are not in the field, then that caps things off, as I understand it, so there is some randomness at play here.

In the days before there were 5000m prelims and distance/mid-d doubles were more common, I think this same procedure may have resulted in some expanded 1500, St, and 10,000 fields.

[gh]

ahh... for the good old days: in Austin in '74 the 100 had 60 (sixty!) entrants; 56 at Philly in '76.

(what happens with 10th-second timing)

[gh]

...
Also consider than if you are the next person on the list in a given event, and you are already in the meet for another event, the committee will often add you, provided the field size can handle it. This is how you will end up with large 100, 200, 400 fields, as many guys in the at-large pool are already in the meet on relays.

Doesn't seem to work exactly that way. While there were 30 men in the 200 last year, there were 26 in both the 100 and 400.

On the women's side the numbers were 30 in the 200, 28 for the 100 and 400.

So 4/6 sprint fields were same size as all other events, 2 had a pair of people extra. And never "large" since there were always empty lanes in the first round.

[KevinM]

Is there a quote for each event outdoors? I know there is for the indoor meet, but wasn't sure abotu a number for the outdoor season....?

The only event mandates listed in the Championship Guide are the 20 per individual and 12 per relay auto qualifiers (plus top 20 10K and multis). After that, everything is dependant on the number of the 544 (I think that's the #) per gender that the autos take up.

So assume that the wholly improbable were to occur and absolutely no one in the entire meet planned to double (including relays). This means 20 unique athletes for each of the 19 individual events 48 athletes not running an individual event manning the auto-qualifiers for the relays. That means (20x19) + (48x2), or 476. That would mean there are 68 at-larges to give out. So for every person competing in an additional event, add one more at-large.

Also consider than if you are the next person on the list in a given event, and you are already in the meet for another event, the committee will often add you, provided the field size can handle it. This is how you will end up with large 100, 200, 400 fields, as many guys in the at-large pool are already in the meet on relays.

[ndamix]

Number is actually higher than that. Believe most men's events were 26 last year, women's 28. (and the combined events get the same amount as all the others)

See...what do I know... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[gh]

Number is actually higher than that. Believe most men's events were 26 last year, women's 28. (and the combined events get the same amount as all the others)

[ndamix]

Is there a quote for each event outdoors? I know there is for the indoor meet, but wasn't sure abotu a number for the outdoor season....?

Generally the NCAA likes to have @ least 20 - 24 per event (minus the combined-events). But things change.