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  • What do yall think the 4x100m record would of been if....

    Donovan Bailey, Linford Christie, and yes Ben Johnson would of actually ran for their birth country of Jamaica???

    What do yall think record would of been if Micheal Johnson at his prime ran on the 4x100m with Lewis and company??

  • #2
    I ma say sub 37... 36.91ish
    on the road

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: What do yall think the 4x100m record would of been if...

      Originally posted by justblaze1011
      ran on the 4x100m with Lewis and company??
      Michael Johnson in his prime was still only like a 10.1 at best 100 meter runner. His running style really wasn't condusive to super fast 100 meter times. It showed the few times he was on relays.

      There was one meet where the 4x1 consisted of 1st leg Donovan Bailey, 2nd Leg Michael Johnson, 3rd Leg Frankie Fredericks, and 4th leg Linford Christie. Michael Johson got ate up on the 2nd leg by whoever the 2nd leg was for the Nigerian team in that race.

      Johnson in his prime, simply wasn't one of the 4 or 5 fastest 100 meter runners that the U.S. had.

      Comment


      • #4
        Donovan Bailey, Leroy Burrell, Frankie Fredericks and Carl Lewis once ran a 4x1 relay together. They clocked 38.24.

        Having said that, there was a window of opportunity where Linford, Ben, Donovan and Ray Stewart could have made a formidable quartet. It takes a bit of hocus pocus make believe to make it happen though. But their birth years were Christie 1960, Johnson 1961, Stewart 1965, Bailey 1967, so by no means impossible, if complicated by the fact Bailey was the youngest and came to the sport late.

        In another thread I was pointing out how countries like Cuba and France have run a lot faster times than their 100 times suggest they ought to, and that's because we're used to seeing the fastest times from US squads which have a lot of speed but aren't necessarily the best drilled. In fact some of the US world records came in years when all their guys weren't running their fastest times necessarily, they were just familiar running with each other.

        With the kind of passing Cuba or France have had, Jamaica last year could have run something crazy like 36.50. Which stretches the realm of credibility, but I suppose the point is not all four men are going to run at personal best level in the same race, when they also happen to have perfect exchanges. And if you're faster than the rest and have a good chance to win, you might not take chances in the exchange zones.

        I think there's evidence that those early 1990s US world record squads could have taken the record a lot lower if they ran more often and really pushed the exchanges to the limit. But the point is in a championship setting when everybody is peaking you get one chance to get the baton round and win the medal.

        I'm not sure which squad you'd put Michael Johnson on. In 1996 that group wasn't at their best and US running was about to see a changing of the guard.

        Perhaps if Johnson hadn't got hurt running 19.32 a quartet of MJ, Maurice Greene, Tim Montgomery and Jon Drummond in 1997? They could have been a team to run faster than Jamaica did in Beijing, maybe. Not sure if they would beat Bolt and Powell and co in a straight race though it would be close.

        The 1988 squad of Mitchell DeLoach Smith and Lewis should have set a world record for sure.

        It's an interesting hypothetical if there had been a 1989 world championships and if MJ had never broke his leg in 1988 and so didn't move up to 400 so quickly and if DeLoach never got hurt either and that group had been together for a while with Burrell coming into the picture. I think that's the problem with putting MJ onto one of these teams, injuries early in his career and injuries after 19.32 basically took him out of the relay picture.

        As we saw with Crawford Gatlin Miller and Greene in Athens, probably the fastest championship team assembled at that point, having four fast guys is no guarantee of anything. So it may be the record would still have been 37.40 dropping to 37.10 afterall.

        A real missed opportunity was Mexico City when John Carlos and Tommie Smith were taken off the relay squad. Combine them with Charlie Greene and Jim Hines at altitude and maybe 37.50 doesn't have to wait until Tokyo 1991. But speaking of Tokyo, since this is a thread about hypotheticals, Bob Hayes never got to defend his 100m title. He would have been just 25 in Mexico City had he stayed with track and not gone to the NFL to have a hall of fame career. Back then track careers were short but 25 could be the prime for a sprinter like Hayes in the modern era. Imagine Hayes, Hines, Smith and Carlos running the 4x1 at 2250 metres of altitude.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: What do yall think the 4x100m record would of been if...

          Originally posted by J2thaD
          Michael Johnson in his prime was still only like a 10.1 at best 100 meter runner. His running style really wasn't condusive to super fast 100 meter times. It showed the few times he was on relays.
          ....
          Johnson in his prime, simply wasn't one of the 4 or 5 fastest 100 meter runners that the U.S. had.
          If Johnson can run a flying start 8.7 from 40m to 140m in a 200m race, and beat Frankie Fredericks and Ato Boldon out of blocks running 10.12 around a curve, I want him on my relay team in that shape.

          Let's not be silly.

          Comment


          • #6
            The only issue I see with the theory talks is that Linford, Donovan, and Ben both would have been nobodies had they stayed in Jamaica. Donovan and Linford were both extremely late bloomers who would have had no chance in even today's Jamaican system.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: What do yall think the 4x100m record would of been if...

              Originally posted by dakota
              Originally posted by J2thaD
              Michael Johnson in his prime was still only like a 10.1 at best 100 meter runner. His running style really wasn't condusive to super fast 100 meter times. It showed the few times he was on relays.
              ....
              Johnson in his prime, simply wasn't one of the 4 or 5 fastest 100 meter runners that the U.S. had.
              If Johnson can run a flying start 8.7 from 40m to 140m in a 200m race, and beat Frankie Fredericks and Ato Boldon out of blocks running 10.12 around a curve, I want him on my relay team in that shape.

              Let's not be silly
              .
              AMEN!!!
              Dog-gonnit, Kota!!!...Im liking everything youve posted today, dude.
              Even the long, Hemingway novels. (LOL)
              Youre alright afterall!!!! :lol:

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: What do yall think the 4x100m record would of been if...

                Originally posted by dakota
                Originally posted by J2thaD
                Michael Johnson in his prime was still only like a 10.1 at best 100 meter runner. His running style really wasn't condusive to super fast 100 meter times. It showed the few times he was on relays.
                ....
                Johnson in his prime, simply wasn't one of the 4 or 5 fastest 100 meter runners that the U.S. had.
                If Johnson can run a flying start 8.7 from 40m to 140m in a 200m race, and beat Frankie Fredericks and Ato Boldon out of blocks running 10.12 around a curve, I want him on my relay team in that shape.

                Let's not be silly.
                Well thats the difference between us and people like him. We are students while he's a fan.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: What do yall think the 4x100m record would of been if...

                  Originally posted by dakota
                  Originally posted by J2thaD
                  Michael Johnson in his prime was still only like a 10.1 at best 100 meter runner. His running style really wasn't condusive to super fast 100 meter times. It showed the few times he was on relays.
                  ....
                  Johnson in his prime, simply wasn't one of the 4 or 5 fastest 100 meter runners that the U.S. had.
                  If Johnson can run a flying start 8.7 from 40m to 140m in a 200m race, and beat Frankie Fredericks and Ato Boldon out of blocks running 10.12 around a curve, I want him on my relay team in that shape.

                  Let's not be silly.
                  It sounds good, but the 4x1 relay I saw with Michael Johson, he didn't run the curve, he was on the 2nd leg, and he got ate up by some Nigerian guy. His flat out 100 speed isn't/wasn't that great.

                  And while you are touting his curve running, its is slightly different running the curve for a 200, as compared to running a curve for 100 meters. Now I agree Johnson was awesome on the curve in his 200s. But that being said. He got his ass ate up on the curve by Donovan Bailey in the match race. I am just saying some of you guys use examples that aren't necessarily good examples. Michael Johnson would smoke Carl Lewis around the curve in the 200. Was he faster in the 100 no. Donovan Bailey smoked Michael Johnson around a 75 meter curve when Johnson was supposed to be the best curve runner in the business. I am just saying there are no constants, and some of you don't realize there is a slight difference when running a 100 meter curve, and running a full 200 meters.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What do Y'all think the world record would have been?
                    on the road

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Speedfirst
                      What do Y'all think the world record would have been?

                      I wonder how low the 4x100 record could go if the best 4 100 runners were on the same team. How low could a healthy Gay, Bolt, Powell and ??? take the record? I think 36.5.

                      By the way ... who is the fourth best 100 runner currently? Bailey?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: What do yall think the 4x100m record would of been if...

                        Originally posted by justblaze1011
                        Originally posted by dakota
                        Originally posted by J2thaD
                        Michael Johnson in his prime was still only like a 10.1 at best 100 meter runner. His running style really wasn't condusive to super fast 100 meter times. It showed the few times he was on relays.
                        ....
                        Johnson in his prime, simply wasn't one of the 4 or 5 fastest 100 meter runners that the U.S. had.
                        If Johnson can run a flying start 8.7 from 40m to 140m in a 200m race, and beat Frankie Fredericks and Ato Boldon out of blocks running 10.12 around a curve, I want him on my relay team in that shape.

                        Let's not be silly.
                        Well thats the difference between us and people like him. We are students while he's a fan.
                        People like him, do you mean people who can look at things with a little objectivity, and logic. People who know that Michael Johnson's personal best at 100 meters was a 10.09 with a +2.0 wind, and thats why he was walked on the second leg of a 4x1. People like him who knew before hand that although Johnson was touted as the best curve runner in history, that indoor 50 meter world record holder, and outdoor 100 meter world record holder Donavon Bailey would smoke Johnson around the curve in that match race. Yeah, people like him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think an MJ coming out of the blocks, as compared to an MJ with a good running start and a good pass, are 2 different beasts.
                          If MJ is on the 3rd leg, and the team has done some good work in training, and MJ gets the stick with some speed, he would have run a mean bend...
                          I know - all hypothetical, of course...
                          And I think that 1968 "potential" team including Smith, Carlos, Hines and Greene, is still ranked way up there...^^^^^

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Here's an interesting squad which ran in Berlin in late August 1996 :lol:

                            Donovan Bailey
                            Michael Johnson
                            Frankie Fredericks
                            Linford Christie

                            38.87

                            Something tells me they weren't taking it seriously. They did however win :lol:

                            Fastest relay MJ took part was a loss to SMTC in 1990.

                            38.48

                            Mark Witherspoon
                            Leroy Burrell
                            Floyd Heard
                            Carl Lewis

                            38.70

                            Ray Stewart
                            Michael Johnson
                            Calvin Smith
                            Dennis Mitchell

                            His fastest time for Baylor was 38.98 and he did run third leg.

                            But that's the real world. This is a what if thread.

                            Johnson the emerging 200/400 runner in 1990 and Johnson 19.32 are completely different beasts, just as he changed focus again targeting the 400m world record in the late nineties. If he doesn't get injured in 1988 maybe he goes to the Olympics in Seoul and his career takes a totally different trajectory. He never quite had to face Reynolds, Everett, Lewis or Watts at their peak for one reason or another, so perhaps a healthy 20/21 year old MJ stays in the short sprints for a while.

                            His 10.09 PB was from a non championship season. He ran it in the semi finals at US Championships in 1994. He qualified for the final but didn't get to run. You've got to figure he might have run faster in the final if he didn't get hurt. And remember, he'd really not focused on the 100 due to moving up to 400m after his injuries from college. By 1996 he's much much faster running 10.12 on a curve. It's impossible to extrapolate what his career looks like. Maybe he takes a bronze in Seoul, doesn't get a headwind in Tokyo and breaks the world record there, doesn't get food poisoning in Barcelona and gets an Olympic title four years early. Maybe he has this whole career 1988-1992 without really dabbling in the 400m. Maybe the post-Barcelona MJ we all know never exists, never gets quite that 400m background which when he steps back down to really work on his speed allows him to run 19.32.

                            This is a thread positing what if you take MJ at his peak - which would be Atlanta - so your points about that race in Toronto don't really stand, things had changed by then. Bailey won Atlanta bursting late and wasn't a match for Boldon and Fredericks at the start or on a curve. You're not doing yourself any favours trying to plough that field.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think not getting a chance to make the 1988 Olympic team, the disaster in 1992, they must have fired Johnson up ahead of the Olympics coming to his home country in 1996. He's nearly 29 by this point and he hasn't got that individual Olympic gold medal he wants but which clearly he's talented enough to have won. That's got to have some explanatory power about how badly he wants this legendary 200/400 double on home soil, and a world record. I can see arguments for not rating Johnson's speed in other seasons, although his performance as far back as Tokyo was extremely impressive. But in Atlanta he's downright fast. But please not another dissection of what MJ could run the 100m in. Clearly in 1996 he had the tools to run the sort of third leg Gay and Bolt have started running the last few years. And 10.12 out of blocks isn't shabby so why not run him on lead off if you've got somebody else in mind for third. I could care less if somebody reckons they saw an unnamed Nigerian athlete best him in some race somewhere. Did the Nigerian run 19.32? LOL.

                              Comment

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