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  • rasb
    replied
    It is fascinating to me how many degrees of perspective there are around this issue. Clearly, this is a difficult situation for the individual athlete, family, friends, etc., and hasn't been handled very well. Anyone with any sense of empathy is aware of that.
    On the other side of the coin, this seems to be at the cutting edge of a very complex problem, which hasn't been dealt with. In fact, sweeping it under the rug over many years, has brought us to this point of departure.
    As I see it, sex-differentiation at the margins, or should I say the "divide" is far from an exact science. By the way, I only learned today that "gender" is a cultural construct, and the correct word in this debate is "sex". That can't be bad, right? :wink: Just kidding ----relax, this is not about sex, or about "western men's views of pulchritude" or any other such red herrings...
    We have competitions, medals, records for Men, and for Women. Clearly there needs to be a definition that is not only theoretically correct, but meets the test of keeping the competition as fair as humanly possible. That is why we have Anti-Doping, that is why we have separate races for Disabled Athletes, and that is why we need to know the difference between Men and Women, in athletics. I actually don't think we are there yet, and whatever the outcome of the current "inquiry", there seems to be a lot yet to be discovered.
    If the World Record for 18 year old women goes down to 1:52 or faster within the next few weeks, which I think is not impossible, then we really have to back to the drawing board. I have no idea how that will work out, but I'm just saying....

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Henry
    replied
    Originally posted by jeremyp
    Assuming Semanya is a female on the exterior, just how does one show that, in the hormone or chromosome department, she has an unfair advantage?

    An equally important issue is to rationally explain how someone comes from nowhere to best in the world in one season? It happened last year with Jelimo, and now it's happened again. Has this ever happened in male track in the last 50 years? Are these anomalies going to occur more frequently?
    ...well the good doctor informed that consumption of fast food is leading to doom seems the excess CSN associated with preservatives in the food being consumed by the youngings will be a serious consideration with these issues. :lol:

    Leave a comment:


  • jeremyp
    replied
    Assuming Semanya is a female on the exterior, just how does one show that, in the hormone or chromosome department, she has an unfair advantage?

    An equally important issue is to rationally explain how someone comes from nowhere to best in the world in one season? It happened last year with Jelimo, and now it's happened again. Has this ever happened in male track in the last 50 years? Are these anomalies going to occur more frequently?

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Henry
    replied
    Playing devil's advocate and in the worst case scenario that an athlete is infact a male running as a female (whether deliberately or not) I expect the parents to say that the athlete is a girl especially if its not deliberate. So depsite the unsavoury nature of the situation, it does seem like a situation that needs testing, Ms. Semenya et.al knew of these ramifications with the sport before signing on to participate so there really are no moral issues (IMO).

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  • bman
    replied
    Many of us, I assume, watched that race and felt like there was something a little different about the whole thing. That is not an insult, I'm just being honest. I am sure everyone who knows her would say she is pretty masculine. I am also sure that she isn't bothered by who she is, and neither should we. My (admittedly uninformed) speculation she could make herself look more feminine if she wanted to, but it just isn't her. Obviously there is nothing abnormal about this. What is abnormal is the fact she just made massive improvements in a short period of time and dominated a field of elite runners to win the world title at 18 years of age. Taken alone, this doesn't mean anything either (I mean it just happened last year!). These two things taken together were inevitably going to cause some awkwardness and whispers (like the Italian runner whose name escapes me). I am not 100% sure a gender test is the answer, but if the results show she has every right to compete (which, I speculate, everyone at the IAAF takes for granted, I know I do), it will hopefully put the issue to rest. The last thing anyone wants is persistent rumors throughout her career.

    The problem is that instead of getting this done ahead of time, or waiting until later to do the test, the IAAF waited until the mourning of the final to say they are doing a test. This is just absolutely idiotic, and it is really a disgrace to the sport, not to mention the young girl who had to deal with running for a world title in the midst of all this. My problem isn't with the fact they want to deal with this awkward situation, is how they want to deal with it.

    As far as Semenya herself, I don't know what I'm talking about, but I suspect that she is physically a normal female, but she just has abnormal hormones which cause the strong body and deep voice. After reading all of the articles that have come out this seems like a logical position. The more I think about this the more I find this only strange in a minor way, which is not how I felt when I first watched the race. I am probably over simplifying this though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by gh
    malmo's thread-starting post is spot-on.
    ??
    First he asked a question. A question is neither 'on' nor 'off'. The answers are.

    Then he gave an ultimatum:

    "It's time for Lamine Diack to offer proof he is a man"

    I'm finding it hard to believe that you are endorsing that statement.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pego
    replied
    Originally posted by skiboo
    Pego pointed out he didn't believe there are hermaphrodites by birth, though I have a friend who claims she was born hermaphroditic.
    This is not in the realm of beliefs. There simply does not exist true hermaphrodism in the mammals. Definition of a hermaphrodite is a creature that can impregnate a female and also could be impregnated by a male. Female hyenas have such a large clitoris that once upon a time, they were considered hermaphrodic (their large clitoris was thought of as penis).

    Confusion in the terminology abounds, because some gender indistinct cases may show, for example, testes (usually undescended and small) in an otherwise female with female ovaries, uterus and vagina. Not all of them have chromosomal abnormalities. Your friend must have had either small testicles, large clitoris, or something of that sort, while being clearly female.

    Many female athletes, as pointed out repeatedly on this thread as well as some others with this theme, have androgenic tendencies, with a lot higher testosterone activity from their adrenal glands than the general female population. That is, why they can run under 11, jump over 200 and such. Does that make them less of a female? The HJ earlier today. Ariane Friedrich certainly behaves like the testosterone would be freely flowing. It does not diminish her feminity, at least I don't think, it does.

    There is an Yvonne Buschbaum thread open. Yvonne was a genetic as well as biological female. She was not so psychologically. And so it goes...

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    Originally posted by skiboo
    Originally posted by Seeksreal
    Originally posted by TrackDaddy

    Why are yall pretending that she doesnt look like a man?
    Because she does not look like a man!! A little androgynous, yes, but not a man!
    Interesting what is in the eye of the beholder. I saw my first pics of Caster yesterday on the IAAF website and I thought she looked more like a man than some men. No offense meant here, it's just my reaction to the pictures.
    Fortunately, western men's ideas of proper pulchritude aren't holding sway in this "debate."

    malmo's thread-starting post is spot-on.

    Leave a comment:


  • TrackDaddy
    replied
    Originally posted by skiboo
    Originally posted by Seeksreal
    Originally posted by TrackDaddy

    Why are yall pretending that she doesnt look like a man?
    Because she does not look like a man!! A little androgynous, yes, but not a man!
    Interesting what is in the eye of the beholder. I saw my first pics of Caster yesterday on the IAAF website and I thought she looked more like a man than some men. No offense meant here, it's just my reaction to the pictures.
    Don't feel bad.

    After all...thats why this issue has been raised initially.

    Its not like they picked her name out of hat while blindfolded for gender testing. :roll:

    Leave a comment:


  • TrackDaddy
    replied
    Originally posted by Marlow
    Originally posted by TrackDaddy to malmo
    Try to stay with us here.
    Duck!
    " :?: "

    Leave a comment:


  • TrackDaddy
    replied
    Originally posted by Seeksreal
    Originally posted by TrackDaddy

    Why are yall pretending that she doesnt look like a man?
    Because she does not look like a man!!
    :?

    In YOUR OPINION.

    Which, apparently, they didnt consider when beginning the probe (pardon the pun).

    We were watching the 800m race before this issue came up and BOTH my wife AND my daughter commented that she looked like a man. They weren't trying to be rude nor were they laughing.

    Alot of people think she looks like a man and I can ASSURE you that is one of if not the primary reason this issue has been raised.

    What else would initiate it?

    Think.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by TrackDaddy to malmo
    Try to stay with us here.
    Duck!

    Leave a comment:


  • TrackDaddy
    replied
    Originally posted by malmo
    Originally posted by TrackDaddy

    Why are yall pretending that she doesnt look like a man?
    I can name dozens of American women over the years who (your words not mine) "look like a man."

    Wanna name them all right now or would you rather just burn them at the stake?
    No.

    But we might want to gender test them.

    See thread topic.

    Try to stay with us here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Re: Which slur is worse?

    Originally posted by malmo
    Benefit of the doubt is afforded to those who deserve it.
    So the President of the IAAF (who is under no cloud of scandal) earns no respect?

    Originally posted by malmo
    This young woman did nothing wrong.
    Irrelevant. She may be wrong 'by birth' .

    Originally posted by malmo
    She does not deserve such a public humiliation.
    Correct, but that is the nature of modern media, so you can tilt at all those windmills you wish.

    Originally posted by malmo
    This is disgraceful and there is no excuse for it.
    The 'excuse' is a desire to get to the 'truth' and 'fairness' of the situation. That is not shameful. The way people treat her is indeed shameful.

    Leave a comment:


  • skiboo
    replied
    Originally posted by Seeksreal
    Originally posted by TrackDaddy

    Why are yall pretending that she doesnt look like a man?
    Because she does not look like a man!! A little androgynous, yes, but not a man!
    Interesting what is in the eye of the beholder. I saw my first pics of Caster yesterday on the IAAF website and I thought she looked more like a man than some men. No offense meant here, it's just my reaction to the pictures.

    Leave a comment:

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