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  • #31
    [quote="Marlow" USA 4x4ers is the SAFEST handoff, and that is indeed the right-to-right, stick-up-high, outgoing-guy's-eyes-on-the-stick, incoming-guy-takes-it-out-of-his-hands pass. Not technically sound, but most effective.[/quote]

    Did you mean right-to-left, so that the outgoing running is facing the curb, and not blindly stepping on it?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Marlow
      Originally posted by Barto
      How about we run 4x100 relays with athletes NOT running any other individual races? Four 10.1 guys.
      Okay, there is the "fix". Where do I collect my salary for "Director of High Performance"?
      tongue firmly in cheek
      You'd BETTER have that tongue embadded, cuz Joe Q. Public ain't gonna understand not having his USATF champ NOT (TRIPLE negative bonus points!) running anchor. Let them get beat by ANYone and heads will roll!! :twisted:
      adidas currently has a lock on most of the U.S. sprinters, but big USATF sponsor Nike would never sign off on a deal that excluded some of their major athletes. Will never happen in this day and age.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by gh
        "relaying" applies only to the 4x1.... for the U.S., handing over the stick in the 4x4 is "would you please pass the salt."
        To add to this... 4x4 guys from all the countries that got a medal said something to the effect of " you don't practice the 4x4" in the post race press conference. The US team didn't know the order until they were on the way to the stadium.

        IMHO the US is over-thinking the 4x1 relays.

        As for Logan I'd be very interested in hearing what substantive changes in preparation were made from Beijing to Berlin with 4x1 preparation. It appears that his fundamental lack of knowledge in the sport is coming to the surface with these issues.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by gh

          adidas currently has a lock on most of the U.S. sprinters, but big USATF sponsor Nike would never sign off on a deal that excluded some of their major athletes. Will never happen in this day and age.
          I dunno, I sure saw a lot of Nike orange in the M100 final at USAs... yeah adidas has Gay, but I bet Nike has way more sub 10.2 guys.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by bhall
            IMHO the US is over-thinking the 4x1 relays.

            It appears that his fundamental lack of knowledge in the sport is coming to the surface with these issues.
            Don't those statements contradict? I think we need MORE thinking (and planning and practicing and competing), not less. We've tried the 'throw them in the deep end and see if they swim' strategy. That didn't work. How about the 'let's give them a chance to hone their skills together' strategy?

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            • #36
              No the statements don't contradict. The fundamental lack of knowledge about the sport is specifically about Logan and his reaction to Beijing performances.

              Like I said I'd like for USATF to outline the the substantive changes between preparations in the past and this year. Show me the change in direct comparison to the past. What was done in 2009 that is different from 2008, 2007, etc, etc? I don't think anything has changed and people are fixating on the event instead of taking a step back and gaining some perspective as to how/why the US has been successful or failed in the past. People want to make changes to a program that they don't fundamentally understand. In every domain/industry I've been in that is a recipe for disaster. Folks here and, I'd suggest, at USATF are looking for the answer to a problem but they don't yet know what the problem is. Step back. Is there actually a problem? What is the problem? What is are the root causes?

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              • #37
                They aren't over thinking anything. They aren't think, thats the problem. There is no accountablity, they have a plan and don't stick to it. Getting a baton around the track in the zone is not rocket science.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by bhall
                  Folks here and, I'd suggest, at USATF are looking for the answer to a problem but they don't yet know what the problem is. Step back. Is there actually a problem? What is the problem? What is are the root causes?
                  I can buy that, but the problem is not well hidden: the USA team is underprepared to compete at the highest level. The solution then is obvious, prepare better. What does that entail? Getting them together for practice and MEETS. The reason that has not been done in the past is because athletes put their own needs above the needs of the group and who can blame them? So step one is the signing of a contract that BINDS them to what USATF says. Don't want to sign? Don't. When the public wonders why you're not on the team, the answer will be simple; you didn't agree to put the needs of the many ahead of the needs of the one. I bet there's very few elites that won't sign. Now you've got the OPPORTUNITY to get some work done. The good news is really does NOT take a lot of practice to get the timing down. But that's just practice. Meets under pressure is a completely new game. So you gin up some meets with the best possible competition. Hell, give a 40.0 college team a 20m head-start!!!

                  Only running fast times in pre-Games meets gets you ready for the Games themselves. But it all starts with the contracts. There can't be 4 or 5 people on their own agendas. The relay agenda can be tweaked to overlap the personal as much as possible so no one loses their income. Obviously the shoe companies need to be on board as well, but it's also in their best interests to look supportive and for their athletes to be seen as team players for the good ol' USofA.

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                  • #39
                    You say "I can buy that" and then proceed with assumption after assumption about the situation, which is exactly opposite to the approach I'm advocating.

                    Root cause analysis is often hard and often produces unanticipated results, which are two of the reasons people seem to avoid it at all costs. Instead they act based on what they perceive the problem to be.

                    I don't have a problem with the idea of contracts as long as the athletes are compensated properly. And I trust USATF to do that like I trust Bernie Madoff with my money.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Marlow
                      Originally posted by bhall
                      Folks here and, I'd suggest, at USATF are looking for the answer to a problem but they don't yet know what the problem is. Step back. Is there actually a problem? What is the problem? What is are the root causes?
                      I can buy that, but the problem is not well hidden: the USA team is underprepared to compete at the highest level. The solution then is obvious, prepare better. What does that entail? Getting them together for practice and MEETS. The reason that has not been done in the past is because athletes put their own needs above the needs of the group and who can blame them? So step one is the signing of a contract that BINDS them to what USATF says. Don't want to sign? Don't. When the public wonders why you're not on the team, the answer will be simple; you didn't agree to put the needs of the many ahead of the needs of the one. I bet there's very few elites that won't sign. Now you've got the OPPORTUNITY to get some work done. The good news is really does NOT take a lot of practice to get the timing down. But that's just practice. Meets under pressure is a completely new game. So you gin up some meets with the best possible competition. Hell, give a 40.0 college team a 20m head-start!!!

                      Only running fast times in pre-Games meets gets you ready for the Games themselves. But it all starts with the contracts. There can't be 4 or 5 people on their own agendas. The relay agenda can be tweaked to overlap the personal as much as possible so no one loses their income. Obviously the shoe companies need to be on board as well, but it's also in their best interests to look supportive and for their athletes to be seen as team players for the good ol' USofA.
                      Why would I want to sacrifice my own ability to make money for the relay? My shoe company doesn't pay a bonus for winning the relay. Why would I want to durn down a race at one meet, which would net me a sizable appearance fee and guarenteed prize money to run a relay practice for free? These professional sprinters are all individual and independent contractors who should have themselves as their number one priorities.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Now here is a thought: If the athletes don't care about the relays, WHY SHOULD WE ??!!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Ned Ryerson
                          Why would I want to sacrifice my own ability to make money for the relay? My shoe company doesn't pay a bonus for winning the relay. Why would I want to durn down a race at one meet, which would net me a sizable appearance fee and guarenteed prize money to run a relay practice for free? These professional sprinters are all individual and independent contractors who should have themselves as their number one priorities.
                          a. a relay gold helps your image, which does lend itself to more endorsements = more money.
                          b. you are a patriot and like the idea of being part of a team that wins a medal for the USA. Why does Tiger Woods want to be in the Olympics? It sure ain't to make more money!!!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Marlow
                            Why does Tiger Woods want to be in the Olympics?
                            Maybe the Ryder Cup would be a better example. He might just like the idea of being an Olympic champion, not necessarily the USA, USA part?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Marlow
                              Originally posted by Ned Ryerson
                              Why would I want to sacrifice my own ability to make money for the relay? My shoe company doesn't pay a bonus for winning the relay. Why would I want to durn down a race at one meet, which would net me a sizable appearance fee and guarenteed prize money to run a relay practice for free? These professional sprinters are all individual and independent contractors who should have themselves as their number one priorities.
                              a. a relay gold helps your image, which does lend itself to more endorsements = more money.
                              b. you are a patriot and like the idea of being part of a team that wins a medal for the USA. Why does Tiger Woods want to be in the Olympics? It sure ain't to make more money!!!
                              a. What have relay gold medals done for Leroy Dixon, Rodney Martin, Miles Smith, Darold Williamson or Angela Daigle-Bowen?
                              b. Tiger is a billionaire. If I'm a sprinter, I'm trying to maintain an upper-middle class lifestyle, while trying to put enough money away to sustain myself while I find a different career once my sprinting days are over. This isn't amateurism where decisions about sport are based purely upon pride. I distinctly remember Manu Ginobli being criticised when he injured himself while playing for Argentina in last year's Olympics because it could have possibly jeopardised his NBA season. The Spurs are Ginobli's primary underwriters and its to them that owes the majority of his focus, not Team Argentina. Similarly, these sprinters get most of their money from a shoe sponsorship and prize money/appearance fees at a smattering of meets across the world. Sure, the IAAF pays prize money, but it's a fraction of what a medal bonus from a sponsor would be, so in that way, there is a great motivation to win an individual medal. But there are no bonuses for relay medals.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Ned Ryerson
                                a. What have relay gold medals done for Leroy Dixon, Rodney Martin, Miles Smith, Darold Williamson or Angela Daigle-Bowen?
                                b. Tiger is a billionaire.
                                a. lots more than if they didn't have them!
                                b. who still wants an Oly gold. So does everyone else. The chances of actually winning a gold are increased astronomically if you're a member of the USA quartet, recent performances notwithstanding!!

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