Coaching Question

[David Andersen]

For those of you who coach HS teams I'm wondering how you would handle this dilemma:

A naturally gifted athlete wants to compete on the track team, but has other sport commitments and does not want to come to practice, only meets. The athlete will train as able in his personal time. He is good enough to make a contribution to the team and help win meets, despite the lack of practice. He may even be good enough to qualify for state. Would you let the athlete compete at meets? Why or why not?

[Marlow]

Re: Coaching Question

A naturally gifted athlete wants to compete on the track team, but has other sport commitments and does not want to come to practice, only meets. The athlete will train as able in his personal time. He is good enough to make a contribution to the team and help win meets, despite the lack of practice. He may even be good enough to qualify for state. Would you let the athlete compete at meets? Why or why not?

This happens a lot with athletes that are committed to another sport at the club level out in town. I bring in the parents and the student, list the expectations, talk about whether or not they are able to letter in the sport (often the answer is 'no' due to school rules, but MOST don't care about that), and determine what is good for everyone. Then I explain the situation to the rest of the team (who are usually totally OK with it). It has worked out well in most cases, but there were a few times where we had to agree that it wasn't working out. Every time it's a case-by-case basis.

[jenjen8765]

No: it's an insult to the kids who have made a commitment and come to practice every day to take a place from them for someone who doesn't come to practice, even for good reasons. There are rules, they apply to everyone, even if you are 'good.'
No: the liklihood of overtraining/overuse injuries for the combined practice times and so forth is very high.
No: are they actually doing the right workouts and the right things?
No: they don't have the chance to develop their leadership and cooperation on the team, and younger/less able athletes are deprived of someone who might 'push' them.
No: No private coaches. If they want to be in their HS sport and represent the HS, then they have to "make do" like everyone else in the HS program. (That's an insult to ME as the coach.) Otherwise go solo with the private coach. There are enough meets.

We faced this decision: a kid who was really good hurdler (for our region), missed practices AND then started missing meets, and we finally had to decide if the possible points at regionals versus the terrible role model and prima-donna-ishness were worth it. We banked on the future, cut the kid, and the points at regionals didn't end up mattering anyway. It came down to whether or not we could actually COUNT on the points showing up, even if for "just the meets."

[Marlow]

No: it's an insult to the kids who have made a commitment and come to practice every day to take a place from them for someone who doesn't come to practice, even for good reasons. There are rules, they apply to everyone, even if you are 'good.'

Have you ever ASKED the other kids. I do; they say it's fine with them.

No: the liklihood of overtraining/overuse injuries for the combined practice times and so forth is very high.

So you talk with the kid and parents about it.

No: are they actually doing the right workouts and the right things?

see last comment

No: they don't have the chance to develop their leadership and cooperation on the team, and younger/less able athletes are deprived of someone who might 'push' them.

Perhaps they ARE doing those things elsewhere?

No: No private coaches. If they want to be in their HS sport and represent the HS, then they have to "make do" like everyone else in the HS program. (That's an insult to ME as the coach.) Otherwise go solo with the private coach. There are enough meets.

Why? Because you say so? My way or the highway? It sounds like you're in this for your own benefit, not the child's.

We faced this decision: a kid who was really good hurdler (for our region), missed practices AND then started missing meets, and we finally had to decide if the possible points at regionals versus the terrible role model and prima-donna-ishness were worth it. We banked on the future, cut the kid, and the points at regionals didn't end up mattering anyway. It came down to whether or not we could actually COUNT on the points showing up, even if for "just the meets."

That's ONE case that you may or may not have made a good decision with.

[26mi235]

I am a parent not a coach.

Does the athlete make a contribution to the team?
Does the team and the sport make a contribution to the athlete?


Is the athlete 'loafing' and being lazy (one reason to discipline a single-sport athlete)?
Do you come to practice to get better or to show that you obey the coach?


If the athlete has student obligations are they allowed to miss practice? If so, how broadly does 'student obligations' go: necessary coursework; taking a field trip; preparing for SATs; being on the math team? Taking a class at another location because it is not offered at the home school (happens in areas like math), leaving the student without a standard means of making standard practice times?


Cross country and track are individual sports even if there is a team scoring and cohesiveness that matters. Some team sports need practice together in a way that the relays do in track.

[polevaultpower]

Don't most states have rules to prevent this type of thing? In my state a kid has to have 10 practices with the team before they are eligible to compete. Just stopping by after school and saying hi to the coach is not supposed to count. Some busy kids don't get eligible until near the end of the season.

At the HS I attended and used to coach at, we had a good number of kids in other sports, and the State Basketball tournament usually overlapped with track by a few weeks.

I think it's OK to modify workouts for a kid who has another practice that same day, and to not require them to come to practice every day. But we hold firm to the 10 practices before you can compete rule.

How much the kids on the team care is usually more of a popularity contest than anything else.

[lonewolf]

Marlow has it right. There is no blanket answer to this conundrum. You have to weigh it case by case in conjunction with the kid, parents, teamates, school, etc.
I do have a nagging moral consideration. It is regrettable that the stud may displace a less talented athlete on a relay or move him/her down in the results of an individual event. The consolation is rationalizing that the stud wins the event and the displaced athlete may not have even placed anyway.
Unfair? Maybe, but life is unfair and not always simple.

[jenjen8765]

jenjen8765 wrote:
No: it's an insult to the kids who have made a commitment and come to practice every day to take a place from them for someone who doesn't come to practice, even for good reasons. There are rules, they apply to everyone, even if you are 'good.'

Have you ever ASKED the other kids. I do; they say it's fine with them.

*We ask, and they are nearly always bitter. Why do "I" have to come to practice if s/he doesn't? (BTW: We have fairly explicity policies on what's an excused absence (SATs, specific kinds of school functions, specific kinds of tutoring - we are a GPA-first kind of program, and generally recognized on the state level for 'scholar athletes'.) The "I'm good and the rules don't apply to me" attitude creates the Michael Vick's* of the world (*currently reformed or not).

jenjen8765 wrote:
No: the liklihood of overtraining/overuse injuries for the combined practice times and so forth is very high.

So you talk with the kid and parents about it.

*And parents are nearly always in denial about their kids workload. And their burnout. Again, "nearly" here is the qualifier, and it's really frustrating to have the parents come to you and say "you're right, it IS too much she has to quit" two weeks before regionals. The current case in point is ALL of the data on youth pitching, and the complete lack of change in coaching and parenting attitudes and practice - because 'their kid" is the one who "really can" throw breaking balls and pitch 9 innings.

jenjen8765 wrote:
No: are they actually doing the right workouts and the right things?

see last comment: Ditto.

jenjen8765 wrote:
No: they don't have the chance to develop their leadership and cooperation on the team, and younger/less able athletes are deprived of someone who might 'push' them.

Perhaps they ARE doing those things elsewhere?

*But the kids on THIS team are then missing out.

jenjen8765 wrote:
No: No private coaches. If they want to be in their HS sport and represent the HS, then they have to "make do" like everyone else in the HS program. (That's an insult to ME as the coach.) Otherwise go solo with the private coach. There are enough meets.

Why? Because you say so? My way or the highway? It sounds like you're in this for your own benefit, not the child's.

LOTS of assumptions in that one, and I'm not going to take on the ad-hominem quality of the assault on my qualifications and motivations. I am confident in my training and knowledge of sport sciences, and so on. Parents who INSIST on a private coach are basically telling me, sometimes explicitly, that I don't know what I'm doing. Why be on this particular team if that's the case? Go somewhere else if you don't like what I have to offer. There are other ways of doing things, and even the best coach in the world might not be the best for any given athlete. BUT: It's a SCHOOL program with broader goals than just scoring points, and the point of being on a track TEAM is to be on THIS team. If you want to run as an individual, do so. Hire me, and I can be the pain-in-the-butt private coach that undercuts the school coach for some other school.

jenjen8765 wrote:
We faced this decision: a kid who was really good hurdler (for our region), missed practices AND then started missing meets, and we finally had to decide if the possible points at regionals versus the terrible role model and prima-donna-ishness were worth it. We banked on the future, cut the kid, and the points at regionals didn't end up mattering anyway. It came down to whether or not we could actually COUNT on the points showing up, even if for "just the meets."

That's ONE case that you may or may not have made a good decision with.
* Shall I recount 18 years of decisions, and cases?

[26mi235]

...

Have you ever ASKED the other kids. I do; they say it's fine with them.

*We ask, and they are nearly always bitter. Why do "I" have to come to practice if s/he doesn't? (BTW: We have fairly explicity policies on what's an excused absence (SATs, specific kinds of school functions, specific kinds of tutoring - we are a GPA-first kind of program, and generally recognized on the state level for 'scholar athletes'.) The "I'm good and the rules don't apply to me" attitude creates the Michael Vick's* of the world (*currently reformed or not).
...
jenjen8765 wrote:
We faced this decision: a kid who was really good hurdler (for our region), missed practices AND then started missing meets, and we finally had to decide if the possible points at regionals versus the terrible role model and prima-donna-ishness were worth it. We banked on the future, cut the kid, and the points at regionals didn't end up mattering anyway. It came down to whether or not we could actually COUNT on the points showing up, even if for "just the meets."

That's ONE case that you may or may not have made a good decision with.
* Shall I recount 18 years of decisions, and cases?

I think that you are answering this from a primarily personal point of view, including exactly what coaching prowess you possess (which other coaches might not).

Most of the parents I know are not in denial of the workload their kids have. Maybe you have had a very non-random sample (does not seem too likely).

[jenjen8765]

Actually, I'm very impressed with many (but of course not all) of the school and private coaches - and if you like what they have to offer, go to them.

And of course it's not a random sample, it's only a problem for the kids/parents that are turning out 'exceptional' in some way, that they want to do everything. The 'average' kids aren't trying this and their parents aren't pushing!

[Marlow]

Jenjen, your experiences and mine (as a HS T&F coach of 17 years) bear no similarities whatsoever. Nothing is as black and white to me as it is to you.

[HigherEd]

and the answer is......?

As a former HS (and college) coach my answer would be no. One of the aspects of our sport that keeps getting missed is why so many people on the outside (of our sport) have such a lack of respect for cross country or track/field. Can you imagine a good football player saying they would only show up for games? Or a basketball player? Or soccer player? I know some will say.....but our sport is different....its individual. I understand that, but I have fought my entire life to bring respect to our sport, and I feel that it is a constant uphill battle due to situations like this. Parents that want to take their kid home before the end of the meet (would that every happen in football?). Whether we want to accept it or not, unless we treat our sport like the others, with the same expectations, and communicate that expectation to everyone, we can never get ahead. One of my top athletes wanted to miss the last meet before conference to attend a graduation party. I told her that she was welcome to miss the meet, but she was done for the year. She told me that if she didn't compete in the conference we would lose the team title. I told her that if we lost then I would accept that. Every kid on the team felt the same way. Not an easy decision, but I believe the correct one (BTW...we lucked out and won by one point!).

Anyway, just my two cents. Thanks.

[Marlow]

Re: and the answer is......?

As a former HS (and college) coach my answer would be no.
Anyway, just my two cents. Thanks.

I can respect that, but T&F is NOTHING like the team sports you mention, which is exactly why we CAN be more understanding to each individual's needs. The team loses nothing (and possibly gains something) by allowing it on a case-by-case basis. And certainly the student/athlete gains something. Been doing it for years with zero ill effects.

[rasb]

Many years ago, I coached at the High School level for about 10 years. Times were a bit different then. It was mostly only the distance runners, who had run cross country, that were doing much in the way of training for track & field. Most of the other good athletes were playing many sports during the fall and winter and early-spring months. So our focus ( with good support from the P.E. teachers, and coaches of the other sports) was to try and get every good athlete in the school to try and do some track/field in April/May, and early June if they made it to Provincials. Some of these athletes could only make practices once or twice a week for a month, but it they qualified by being among the 3 best in the School, they could compete at the Cities...
Over the course of a relatively few years, we had the following level of athletes compete successfully for our school in track & field:
* 3 hockey players who made it to the NHL
* 2 of Canada's best amateur golfers
* the skip of a National Championship curling team
* 1 guy who played Professional soccer in England
* 1 gal who was on the National Field Hockey Team
* 2 guys who played National Level Lacrosse
* several guys/gals who played post-secondary volleyball and basketball
at a high level.
* and some others who I have probably missed.

None of these particular athletes competed in track & field after High School, but they were damn good athletes, and good kids, whose raw athletic abilities and fierce competitive spirit added immensely to our program.

[Spickard]

Well, I love Marlow's perspective on many, many things, but not this. I'd never let a kid show up for meets and not practices. I coach in the same state Becca does, and our state association forbids athletes to miss practice for club sports.

I do all I can to get club/multisport athletes out, but it is a two way street. The following are excerpts of what goes home to each athlete and parent in this situation, just so we are clear about the rationale:

...The other conflict for club sport participants is the physical toll taken on the bodies of the athletes, something that often causes injuries as well as poor performances. Our workouts have been meticulously thought out and individualized to achieve specific levels of improvements in strength, speed, and stamina. Since our staff is held accountable for the safety and health of our athletes, we have an inherent right to ask students to limit outside activities that may jeopardize their safety and health during practice.

...These policies are in place to ensure the health and safety of the athletes and minimal commitment to our team. The above policies represent a compromise on the part of our staff, and compromise is expected in return from the club system. If athletes and their clubs coaches cannot abide by these policies, the athletes will be forced to choose between the two. Our head coach reserves the right to remove athletes from the team who are not honest and forthright on this issue.

Our program has been fortunate to have a great deal of success in recent years, both for boys and girls, and part of that is because we raised the bar in terms of expectations rather than prostitute ourselves (and the sport we love) to gain talented team members. It is not my job to expose every possible kid to track and field, no matter how tantalizing their potential. We emphasize team but are very similar to colleges in that we individualize a lot, but nevertheless, our kids would be PISSED if we just let someone show up and compete. It would crap on everything they work for. I feel like I can say that because I've asked them about this very scenario before.