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Why is Ethiopian NR for steeple only 8:11.32?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by malmo
    It would be a lot easier for you if you cease to troll threads that you have neither an interest in, nor anything to contribute.
    Interesting . . . I DID contribute my opinion on the thread topic above, and you have yet to . . .

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by vencio2
      i wondered if money/resources are an issue (more so than in kenya, where strong legacy of steeple success has helped make equipment / funding available) - sports facilities in ethiopia may be more basic with a lack of barriers/waterjumps to train on.
      There might be some weight to this idea. It could be the case that Ethiopia, for a long time, did not have modern tracks and thus steeplechase equipment or pits. If the race simply wasn't contested, then it would be unsurprising that Ethiopia did not produce steeplechasers, and thus would not have a history of steeplechasers. A way to test this is to look back into results from the 90s and see if there were a lot of steeplechase races held in Ethiopia, or if there were any at all. (maybe someone with access to these can look into it?)

      Anyway, just throwing the idea out there, it could be totally wrong. I vaguely remember from interviews with Geb that there really were not a lot of good tracks in Ethiopia when he was starting out which made me think of this possibility.

      Another alternative is that the long distance ones were seen as the hot events (like the sprints in the US) and Ethiopian runners just naturally gravitated to the 5000, 10000 and Marathon.

      Comment


      • #18
        Certainly one of the obvious answers to Dr. Jay's question is the extreme difficulty of making the Kenyan World and Olympic team due to the staggering depth of elite distance runners in the country, while the situation is not the same in Ethiopia regarding depth.
        To illustrate, the 5000 meter pbs of the top Ethiopian steeplers are as follows:
        Gary 13:33
        Jarsu 13:19
        Mesfin 13:29

        These are all respectable runners, but they are not much different from what you might expect from U.S. steeplers.

        In contrast, here is a list of 5000 meter times from 2009 (not necessarily pbs) of Kenyan runners who were NOT on the Kenyan World Championship team.
        Edwin Soi 12:55
        Josphat Bett Kipkoech 12:57
        Mark Kiptoo 12:58
        Leonard Komon 12:58
        Lucas Rotich 12:58
        Abraham Chebii 13:01
        Mathew Kisirio 13:02
        Thomas Longosiwa 13:03
        Jacob Chesari 13:04
        Mike Kigen 13:04
        Mangata Ndiwa 13:05

        If Ethiopia had this kind of depth, i.e., if they had a half dozen or so 13 flat types practicing the steeple, I'd venture a rather safe guess that their record would be close to 8:00, and the same goes for the U.S.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by joeltetreault
          There might be some weight to this idea. It could be the case that Ethiopia, for a long time, did not have modern tracks and thus steeplechase equipment or pits. If the race simply wasn't contested, then it would be unsurprising that Ethiopia did not produce steeplechasers, and thus would not have a history of steeplechasers. A way to test this is to look back into results from the 90s and see if there were a lot of steeplechase races held in Ethiopia, or if there were any at all. (maybe someone with access to these can look into it?)
          The existence of two sub: 8:20 ethopians back in the 70s (Tura put several such performances on the board before his 1980 NR) might put that theory to bed...

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          • #20
            Originally posted by AS
            The existence of two sub: 8:20 ethopians back in the 70s (Tura put several such performances on the board before his 1980 NR) might put that theory to bed...
            Fair enough!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by malmo
              Originally posted by vencio2
              i wondered if money/resources are an issue (more so than in kenya, where strong legacy of steeple success has helped make equipment / funding available) - sports facilities in ethiopia may be more basic with a lack of barriers/waterjumps to train on.
              You're seriously not that naive? Training for the steeplechase is no different than training for any other distance event. There is no need for "funding" (which a poor country like Kenya doesn't have) or "facilities."
              Malmo, I recall that sometime ago, on the Bethke thread, you opined that Bethke had no talent for steeple or something to that effect. It seems to contradict what you are saying here. Is there a difference in the road to success for steeple vs. other distance events or isn't there?

              Comment


              • #22
                I do not know if malmo will provide a more definitive answer but here are the pieces as I see them. For the Steeple, the primary training is that of the distance runner (i.e., in the 3000, 5000, 10,000). Hurdle training, including the water jump, are secondary (look at the technique of some great SC guys from Kenya (Keino?)).

                Some runners are 'natural' at the event while others are not. Bethke was not and malmo was. Among a large number of very good Ethiopian distance runners there should be some of each. Thus, training for distances is the primary factor.

                That said, it seems to me that the dropoff as distances get shorter is more 'rapid' among Ethiopian distance runners than among Kenyans. Now, this might be due to there being more Kenyan distance runners or other differences. However, malmo has pointed out to me that most Kenyan distances runners come from a single tribe.

                I do not know how this relates to Ethiopians in terms of singularness of background. I also do not know how much of the Kenyan tribal effect is: 1) genetic; 2) cultural; 3) geographical (high); and 4) economic (e.g., opportunities in running vis a vis other options.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by ranunculus
                  Originally posted by malmo
                  Originally posted by vencio2
                  i wondered if money/resources are an issue (more so than in kenya, where strong legacy of steeple success has helped make equipment / funding available) - sports facilities in ethiopia may be more basic with a lack of barriers/waterjumps to train on.
                  You're seriously not that naive? Training for the steeplechase is no different than training for any other distance event. There is no need for "funding" (which a poor country like Kenya doesn't have) or "facilities."
                  Malmo, I recall that sometime ago, on the Bethke thread, you opined that Bethke had no talent for steeple or something to that effect. It seems to contradict what you are saying here. Is there a difference in the road to success for steeple vs. other distance events or isn't there?
                  Where is the contradiction?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by malmo
                    Originally posted by ranunculus
                    Originally posted by malmo
                    Originally posted by vencio2
                    i wondered if money/resources are an issue (more so than in kenya, where strong legacy of steeple success has helped make equipment / funding available) - sports facilities in ethiopia may be more basic with a lack of barriers/waterjumps to train on.
                    You're seriously not that naive? Training for the steeplechase is no different than training for any other distance event. There is no need for "funding" (which a poor country like Kenya doesn't have) or "facilities."
                    Malmo, I recall that sometime ago, on the Bethke thread, you opined that Bethke had no talent for steeple or something to that effect. It seems to contradict what you are saying here. Is there a difference in the road to success for steeple vs. other distance events or isn't there?
                    Where is the contradiction?
                    If "training for the steeplechase is no different than training for any other distance event", would it not follow that the talent for the two is also not significantly different? I would presume that ideal training methods differ from individual to individual and if the talent is different, so should be the training methods. Is this a faulty assumption? If so, why?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      [quote="ranunculus"

                      If "training for the steeplechase is no different than training for any other distance event", would it not follow that the talent for the two is also not significantly different? I would presume that ideal training methods differ from individual to individual and if the talent is different, so should be the training methods. Is this a faulty assumption? If so, why?[/quote]

                      You would fail in logic class

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        [quote=malmo]
                        Originally posted by "ranunculus"

                        If "training for the steeplechase is no different than training for any other distance event", would it not follow that the talent for the two is also not significantly different? I would presume that ideal training methods differ from individual to individual and if the talent is different, so should be the training methods. Is this a faulty assumption? If so, why?[/quote

                        You would fail in logic class
                        Why a civil discourse, if an ad hominem attack is so much simpler, is that it malmo?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          [quote=ranunculus]
                          Originally posted by malmo
                          Originally posted by "ranunculus"

                          If "training for the steeplechase is no different than training for any other distance event", would it not follow that the talent for the two is also not significantly different? I would presume that ideal training methods differ from individual to individual and if the talent is different, so should be the training methods. Is this a faulty assumption? If so, why?[/quote

                          You would fail in logic class
                          Why a civil discourse, if an ad hominem attack is so much simpler, is that it malmo?
                          WTF?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ranunculus
                            If "training for the steeplechase is no different than training for any other distance event", would it not follow that the talent for the two is also not significantly different? I would presume that ideal training methods differ from individual to individual and if the talent is different, so should be the training methods. Is this a faulty assumption? If so, why?
                            When malmo wrote that the training was the same for the steeplechase as for the other track distance races, I believe he was saying it is essentially the same, with some specific steeple training as a supplement, but certainly not the meat of the training.
                            To answer your question, Haile Gebrselassie was the best distance runner in the world on the track for a lengthy period of time, and yet he was never the best cross country runner in the world. So you could have similar training for the track distance races and cross country (and by similar I mean substantially similar) and still be better at one or the other.
                            You could take 6 runners who can all do 13:00 for 5000, and as an example, if you tell them they are going to be steeplechasers, my guess is a couple will turn out to be pretty good at it, a couple might be OK just because they are such good runners, and a couple might realize that it is obviously the wrong event for them. So the training might be substantially similar for the steeple and 5000, and yet athletes are often better at one or the other. Surely this is not difficult to understand...

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                            • #29
                              You would have thought the three per event A-standard limit would have been cause to address this question a generation ago at the management level.

                              The population is roughly three times Kenya. Why isn't it reasonable to think the E's should have as many top Jrs. in the 2/3ks as their formidable neighbors as they do at 5/10 K?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 2 cents
                                Surely this is not difficult to understand...
                                No it is not. I am also not an idiot. I asked malmo a question and instead of answering it, he blew me off. When I objected, he said WTF.

                                Now I see, why he is so widely despised. A lot of knowledge, no class.

                                Comment

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