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What happens with Caster Semenya and the medal?

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  • cacique
    replied
    Originally posted by 26mi235
    Originally posted by cacique
    Originally posted by Pego
    Plastic surgery could make her a functional male (capable of reproduction),
    that's news to me. i don't think it's possible to "make a man" out of a woman.
    I think that you miss that she has more of the male components than the female ones, so your reference point is not quite correct from what I understand.
    actually, you missed my point. i was solely saying that pego is not correct about that surgery issue. i wasn't addressing whether she can compete as a woman or not.

    Leave a comment:


  • lonewolf
    replied
    We can agonize in finitum over this unfortunate incident but, the truth is, there is no universally satisfactory solution.
    I have great empathy with Semenaya who faces this conumdrum through the vicissitude of a very rare birth.
    That said, a person , even though raised female with female instinct and emotions who has external female genitalia but has the advantage of male testosterone and strength should not be allowed to compete against women.
    I don't know, ot think it matters, if Semenaya is now physically or emotionally attracted to men/women/both but I doubt creating a pseudo-male surgically is the answer nor do I know if it is necessay to allow her/him to compete against men.
    Whether removing her/his internal male organs will make him/her eligible for competition against women, I do not know.
    It is traumatic for those concerned but this is one of those unsolveable puzzles Mother Nature throws at us occasionally.

    Leave a comment:


  • 26mi235
    replied
    Originally posted by cacique
    Originally posted by Pego
    Plastic surgery could make her a functional male (capable of reproduction),
    that's news to me. i don't think it's possible to "make a man" out of a woman.
    I think that you miss that she has more of the male components than the female ones, so your reference point is not quite correct from what I understand.

    Leave a comment:


  • cacique
    replied
    Originally posted by Pego
    Plastic surgery could make her a functional male (capable of reproduction),
    that's news to me. i don't think it's possible to "make a man" out of a woman (if you know what i mean), although the other way around is. (not trying to be graphic, but as i understand, female-to-male transgender persons do not have functional penises).

    it would take castration, lifelong hormone therapy and still she would not be a fully functional female.
    no, but she'd be eligible to compete as a woman.

    Leave a comment:


  • unclezadok
    replied
    Interesting decision.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pego
    replied
    Originally posted by Daisy
    Marlow, I can't imagine that a genetic and physiological woman, even with naturally high testosterone, would ever be disqualified.

    The complications come when the physiology and genetics conflict with the basic requirements to compete in the woman's class rather than the open class.

    We already know that some genetic exceptions (XY but cannot respond to testosterone) are cleared to compete in the woman's class IF there is no advantage.

    Maybe the biggest problem here is that the IAAF are trying to be inclusive. I think pego, a long time ago now, had said just make the definition XX with normal sexual physiology (internal and external). All others do not qualify for the womans class. If we are going to have huge law suits every time there is a grey area situation they will have to be less inclusive, as pego suggests.
    I am sympathetic to XY or mosaic Androgen insensitivity syndrome women. They are women. CS has ONLY male gonads, no uterus. So what, if her external genitals have a superficially female appearance?

    Plastic surgery could make her a functional male (capable of reproduction), it would take castration, lifelong hormone therapy and still she would not be a fully functional female.

    Leave a comment:


  • cacique
    replied
    it's very bizarre taht the asa would make such an announcement when the iaaf just said it would take a while to make a determination?

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but since IAAF said nothing, what if SA launched a preemptive attack and announced a clearing when the investigation is still going on?

    Why complete silence from IAAF?

    Leave a comment:


  • 79.
    replied
    Originally posted by Iam2cool
    CONGRATULATIONS to Semenya.i was hoping for a happy ending to this madness. sanity has prevailed for now. CS is NOT the first intersex (if she is)WOMAN to compete in international sports nor will she be the last. i hope to see her next year in top form again.
    Great news !!!
    R.E.S.P.E.C.T for Semenya.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daisy
    replied
    Originally posted by Marlow
    Originally posted by Daisy
    Marlow, I can't imagine that a genetic and physiological woman, even with naturally high testosterone, would ever be disqualified.
    Didn't that already happen with Mary Decker and her T:E ratio, which she argued WAS in the range of 'normalcy' for her circumstances?
    Big difference between someone ingesting testosterone (skewed T:E ratio) and someone making naturally high amounts of testosterone.

    Leave a comment:


  • 26mi235
    replied
    Originally posted by Marlow
    Originally posted by Daisy
    Marlow, I can't imagine that a genetic and physiological woman, even with naturally high testosterone, would ever be disqualified.
    Didn't that already happen with Mary Decker and her T:E ratio, which she argued WAS in the range of 'normalcy' for her circumstances?
    She may have argued that but it did not make the claim a 'fact'. At the time, the critical ratio was 6:1 (and Mary's might have been 10:1 or more, I think that malmo as the info). It has since been dropped to 4:1 but the real test is not in the ratio per se, which is now typically used as a signal but the advanced test on the substance. I think it is a test that gets at the endogenous/exogenous nature of the T. Floyd Landis had the T:E ratio test 'tossed' in the sense that there were some problems in his case but he failed the more exacting test and that is was nailed him.

    I do think that the key issue is what is acceptable as far as fairness in competing in the sport against women.

    As for fairness, I am sympathetic to Semenya but I am not at all to ASA. Allowing them to keep her as the Gold medalist rewards their bad behavior and sets a precedent for others to just go ahead and after-the-fact changes may be too hard to effect. This is REALLY the wrong message to send.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by Daisy
    Marlow, I can't imagine that a genetic and physiological woman, even with naturally high testosterone, would ever be disqualified.
    Didn't that already happen with Mary Decker and her T:E ratio, which she argued WAS in the range of 'normalcy' for her circumstances?

    Leave a comment:


  • Daisy
    replied
    Marlow, I can't imagine that a genetic and physiological woman, even with naturally high testosterone, would ever be disqualified.

    The complications come when the physiology and genetics conflict with the basic requirements to compete in the woman's class rather than the open class.

    We already know that some genetic exceptions (XY but cannot respond to testosterone) are cleared to compete in the woman's class IF there is no advantage.

    Maybe the biggest problem here is that the IAAF are trying to be inclusive. I think pego, a long time ago now, had said just make the definition XX with normal sexual physiology (internal and external). All others do not qualify for the womans class. If we are going to have huge law suits every time there is a grey area situation they will have to be less inclusive, as pego suggests.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    I read with interest the Jill Geer blog that is linked on the home-page. It discusses the "Myth of Fairness" in gender issues in athletics. Since some women are BORN with more 'masculine' characteristics than others, isn't THAT an unfair advantage? At what point does a female's masculine traits disqualify her? Semenya's traits/physiology seemed (to most, but not all observers) 'unfair', and presumably there are limits to the testosterone that a woman may have in her system, but the women who are just below that have a distinct advantage over those who are 'normal' and especially 'sub-normal'. It's very much like having 100m sprinters compete in heats to advance on time, and one runs with a -2.0w and the other a +2.0w.

    The only 'correct' way to have handled the Semenya situation was to determine BEFORE she competed whether she was eligible, but that doesn't even address how 'fair' it would be to DQ her under a less than clearly understood rationale.

    Leave a comment:


  • Iam2cool
    replied
    CONGRATULATIONS to Semenya.i was hoping for a happy ending to this madness. sanity has prevailed for now. CS is NOT the first intersex (if she is)WOMAN to compete in international sports nor will she be the last. i hope to see her next year in top form again.

    Leave a comment:

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