Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What happens with Caster Semenya and the medal?

Collapse

Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Pelpa
    Originally posted by Pego
    she knew a lot more than many people give her a credit for. How much more, I don't know.
    Originally posted by Marlow
    I think 'most people' do assume she knew 'something' was up. She may have even known she had no womb or ovaries. She certainly knew she was more 'manly' than her fellow competitors.
    If this turns out to be true, she certainly is culpable to some degree.
    I honestly can't imagine she was completely unaware of any problems. You don't have to be highly educated to know a girl is supposed to menstruate long before the age of 18.
    Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...

    Comment


    • #47
      Just to break a bit. I will point this question to Pego; who seems to have the medical handle on things or any other person who can weigh in. Is it still correct to refer to Semanya as she (not asking within the context of what one feels they are inside, rather what the doctor and nature said)?

      Comment


      • #48
        Pelpa- I'd suggest that the question you're asking isn't a medical one but a cultural one. It is a question of gender and not sex. So basically you identify the person's gender as they wish it to be identified. IMHO you can't get around the fact that gender is socially constructed.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Marlow
          Originally posted by Dutra
          I fail to see how she keeps her medal if she was ineligible to compete.
          Why would anyone even bring up the fact that it was not a "doping matter"?
          I'd like the fact that there was no INTENT to cheat to weigh in the decision. Dopers intend to cheat; she didn't.
          I don't think intent should factor in at all. If she's ineligible for the category she should be dq'd no matter what the circumstances. I also don't like any "intent" being brought in to the situation. It's a bad precedent. I don't think there's intent to cheat here at all but that shouldn't really be a factor.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by bhall
            Pelpa- I'd suggest that the question you're asking isn't a medical one but a cultural one. It is a question of gender and not sex. So basically you identify the person's gender as they wish it to be identified. IMHO you can't get around the fact that gender is socially constructed.
            IMHO as per the best scientific literature that I can read, gender and sex are a functions of medical sciences.
            I put it to you that if the case were that gender was defined by culture then Semenya would be all clear.

            Further, culture also tells that some kin of some tribes are above human eg. the spider girl in India who was thought to be a GOD if she were born in the early 1900s in the west she would be a sideshow attraction. medicine tells us she is a function of a conjoined twin (then and now).

            In my culture, my birth date says I'm a goat, and the chinese say I was born in the year of the pig, at the end of the day doctors tell me that I'm an adult male with premature balding.

            I respect the culture but I need the science, since cultures clash.

            Comment


            • #51
              You missed the point completely. The question you *should* ask is whether Semenya is male or female and not something about how she should be referred to. Two very different things.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by bhall
                Then the question you *should* ask is whether Semenya is male or female and not something about how she should be referred to. Two very different things.
                I assumed that specifically referring it to someone with a medical background said it all.

                Comment


                • #53
                  From what I've gleaned from academics, gender is social "science" and sex is biological science. Gender studies were a large part of my wife's doctoral dissertation (which I proofread many times), and while the whole intersex thing wasn't in it at all she did help a thick-headed layman like me to understand it.

                  She told me gender was a social construct, to which I replied "My testicles don't really exist, they are merely a product of the dominant culture?" She said my sex is determined by biology, but my gender is determined by people, myself and/or others.

                  If you look at it this way, since Semenya wishes to be thought of as a female we should call her by feminine pronouns. Whether we let her compete as a female is another issue entirely.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Powell
                    You don't have to be highly educated to know a girl is supposed to menstruate long before the age of 18.
                    And yet, thinking I wasn't a woman, wouldn't even be in my first 20 guesses of the cause. Amenorrhea is common among highly trained athletes. There are plenty of other reasons one could attribute it to before arriving at Semenya's situation.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mighty Favog
                      From what I've gleaned from academics, gender is social "science" and sex is biological science. Gender studies were a large part of my wife's doctoral dissertation (which I proofread many times), and while the whole intersex thing wasn't in it at all she did help a thick-headed layman like me to understand it.

                      She told me gender was a social construct, to which I replied "My testicles don't really exist, they are merely a product of the dominant culture?" She said my sex is determined by biology, but my gender is determined by people, myself and/or others.

                      If you look at it this way, since Semenya wishes to be thought of as a female we should call her by feminine pronouns. Whether we let her compete as a female is another issue entirely.
                      I owe you a Heineken or a Redstripe Bold!!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Marlow
                        Originally posted by Powell
                        You don't have to be highly educated to know a girl is supposed to menstruate long before the age of 18.
                        And yet, thinking I wasn't a woman, wouldn't even be in my first 20 guesses of the cause. Amenorrhea is common among highly trained athletes.
                        She was not a highly trained athlete until 2008 (if that).
                        First y'all make a big deal about how she was too uneducated and unsophisticated to see what was going on, and now we are to believe she knows what amenorrhea is? :shock:
                        Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Powell
                          now we are to believe she knows what amenorrhea is?
                          There are plenty of reasons for a lack of a cycle by age 18. Her condition would be one of the rarer reasons. As I said before, there was no doubt she and her inner circle would have known she was 'different', but the female external genitalia are all the 'proof' I would have needed to assume she must be a woman. My assumption would have only been 'half true', but without medical proof of her testosterone generation capabilities (which I don't think SHE knew about), I'd have been blissfully ignorant, as I believe she was. Now . . . she may NOT have been so innocent in this regard, but someone will have to prove that before I'd believe it.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Marlow
                            Originally posted by Powell
                            now we are to believe she knows what amenorrhea is?
                            There are plenty of reasons for a lack of a cycle by age 18. Her condition would be one of the rarer reasons. As I said before, there was no doubt she and her inner circle would have known she was 'different', but the female external genitalia are all the 'proof' I would have needed to assume she must be a woman. My assumption would have only been 'half true', but without medical proof of her testosterone generation capabilities (which I don't think SHE knew about), I'd have been blissfully ignorant, as I believe she was. Now . . . she may NOT have been so innocent in this regard, but someone will have to prove that before I'd believe it.
                            Marlow, the ASA spokesman came on international TV and admitted knowing the results from the get go. Semenya was there for the examinations and saw what was going on. ASA admitted hanky panky. This is something that obviously goes back to the his/her agent. Forget the education level and cycle discussion. There are circumstantial points of evidence pointing against him/her.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              These revelations indicate that semenya has exhausted a great deal of the sympathetic lettings off. She/he now has to face up to the scrutiny or CS's team in the least. Unfortunate but relevant.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Mighty Favog
                                From what I've gleaned from academics, gender is social "science" and sex is biological science. Gender studies were a large part of my wife's doctoral dissertation (which I proofread many times), and while the whole intersex thing wasn't in it at all she did help a thick-headed layman like me to understand it.

                                She told me gender was a social construct, to which I replied "My testicles don't really exist, they are merely a product of the dominant culture?" She said my sex is determined by biology, but my gender is determined by people, myself and/or others.

                                If you look at it this way, since Semenya wishes to be thought of as a female we should call her by feminine pronouns. Whether we let her compete as a female is another issue entirely.
                                I agree with all of that. I'll use the feminine pronoun unless and until she decides to self-identify as a male, which I don't expect to happen.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X