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Can Ritz be Bigger Than Webb by a Greater Amount Than Pre is

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  • joeltetreault
    replied
    Originally posted by malmo
    Even more impressive when you consider that the number of rounds has dropped in races 800m and up.
    It's dropped in the 10000, but the 1500 has been three heats for at least several decades. The 800 has generally been 3 but a few have been 4, 5000 has generally been 2 but a few have been 3.

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  • joeltetreault
    replied
    Totally agree with kuha here...especially when one considers the times from the WC's in the ElG era, and that the last 5 years have been sort of anemic for the 1500 when compared to the previous decades (though I believe it is on the up).

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  • kuha
    replied
    Originally posted by Zat0pek
    It is interesting to note how LITTLE winning times have changed at 1500. Using Oly times:

    Winning Oly times from 1960-1976 were 3:35 (Elliott, '60), 3:38 (Snell, '64), 3:34 (Keino, '68), 3:36 (Vasala, '72), and 3:39 (Walker, '76). The average is about 3:36.

    The winning Oly times from '92-'08 were 3:40 (Cacho, '92), 3:35 (Morceli, '96), 3:32 (Ngeny, '00), 3:34 (El G) and 3:33 (Kiprop, after Ramzi's positive). The average is about 3:35.
    The "equivalence"of these times might be misleading. If anything, it demonstrates that championship fields have gotten far more conservative and tactical over the years. Elliott's race was a WR; Snell's Tokyo race was = fastest 1500 for the year; Keino's '68 performance was the 2nd best in history. Vasala's time in '72 was the best performance of the year (by half a second). From there on, the relative quality of the winning times (on average) declines sharply.

    Overall, these numbers tell us much more in relative, rather than absolute, terms.

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  • malmo
    replied
    Originally posted by Zat0pek
    Originally posted by Run DMC
    I think the better comparison is OG and WC medals and WRs and NRs. Ritz may get the 10K AR and own the 5K at the same time and that would be outstanding. But really, things are different now. Runners race less and specialize more. What 5k/10K guy today would seriously take a shot at a 2K AR?
    It is interesting to note how LITTLE winning times have changed at 1500. Using Oly times:

    Winning Oly times from 1960-1976 were 3:35 (Elliott, '60), 3:38 (Snell, '64), 3:34 (Keino, '68), 3:36 (Vasala, '72), and 3:39 (Walker, '76). The average is about 3:36.

    The winning Oly times from '92-'08 were 3:40 (Cacho, '92), 3:35 (Morceli, '96), 3:32 (Ngeny, '00), 3:34 (El G) and 3:33 (Kiprop, after Ramzi's positive). The average is about 3:35.
    Even more impressive when you consider that the number of rounds has dropped in races 800m and up.

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  • Zat0pek
    replied
    Originally posted by Run DMC
    I think the better comparison is OG and WC medals and WRs and NRs. Ritz may get the 10K AR and own the 5K at the same time and that would be outstanding. But really, things are different now. Runners race less and specialize more. What 5k/10K guy today would seriously take a shot at a 2K AR?
    It is interesting to note how LITTLE winning times have changed at 1500. Using Oly times:

    Winning Oly times from 1960-1976 were 3:35 (Elliott, '60), 3:38 (Snell, '64), 3:34 (Keino, '68), 3:36 (Vasala, '72), and 3:39 (Walker, '76). The average is about 3:36.

    The winning Oly times from '92-'08 were 3:40 (Cacho, '92), 3:35 (Morceli, '96), 3:32 (Ngeny, '00), 3:34 (El G) and 3:33 (Kiprop, after Ramzi's positive). The average is about 3:35.

    Leave a comment:


  • Run DMC
    replied
    I think I saw an interview with Billy Mills once where he said runners of different eras should not be compared. Mills ran on a clay track in the rain to win the '64 Olympic 10,000 in 28:24. Slow by Pre's time, but tracks were better. However, when pushed, he did note that Ghammoudi finished 2nd in the '64 10,000 (with Mills in 1st) and 2nd in the '72 5000 with Pre in 4th. But it was 2 different races separated by 8 years.

    I think the better comparison is OG and WC medals and WRs and NRs. Ritz may get the 10K AR and own the 5K at the same time and that would be outstanding. But really, things are different now. Runners race less and specialize more. What 5k/10K guy today would seriously take a shot at a 2K AR?

    Leave a comment:


  • tandfman
    replied
    Originally posted by kuha
    What would Dean's reputation as an actor be if he hadn't died young? What would Marilyn Monroe's image/appeal be today if she hadn't died in 1962?
    In Dean's case, it might have depended on his subsequent work. I don't believe Monroe's image and appeal would have been any different had she lived. Greta Garbo lived for nearly 50 years after her last film. She retained her image and appeal, and I think Marilyn Monroe would have retained hers. And if you want examples of women whose beauty faded with age, but who retained their image, consider Elizabeth Taylor, Brigit Bardot, etc. Their enduring image is that of their prime.

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  • kuha
    replied
    Originally posted by mal
    Originally posted by gh
    But--because of his early death and the cottage industry that sprang up around it--Pre has gone on to surpass Ryun in the public (such as it is) consciousness as it exists today.
    Like James Dean is remembered for acting??
    Yup. I referred to "the familiar James Dean effect" in a post above.

    What would Dean's reputation as an actor be if he hadn't died young? What would Marilyn Monroe's image/appeal be today if she hadn't died in 1962?

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  • mal
    replied
    Originally posted by gh
    But--because of his early death and the cottage industry that sprang up around it--Pre has gone on to surpass Ryun in the public (such as it is) consciousness as it exists today.
    Like James Dean is remembered for acting??

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  • SQUACKEE
    replied
    Bedford was recently interviewed for a British Magazine. Still a wild man. Was drinking pint after pint of beer when a guy bet him he couldn't finish a marathon in the morning. He switched to mix drinks thinking the fruit juice would be better for the race. In the morning he ran and threw up at 18 miles but he finished.

    When he was 14 years old he decided to run around the island where he was vacationing....it was 48 miles a round!!!

    Here is the link, click on latest digital issue.


    http://www.runningfreemag.co.uk/

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  • kuha
    replied
    Originally posted by Conor Dary
    Originally posted by lovetorun
    Since Bedford has been mentioned on this thread, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents: Some might say that Bedford didn't amount to much, but I think he had guts and made many a race faster, honest and more exciting. I just wish he would have pushed the pace in the Munich 5000m!
    I don't recall anyone saying Bedford never amounted to much. WR holder, a great double in the AAA in 1972, And great stories such as winning the Southern AAAs Junior and Senior race CC on the same day!

    Now if he had only ran that 4:15 opening mile in the 5k, instead of the 10, in 1972, that would have been a race!
    Absolutely. Any of us runners paying any attention at all in the early '70s were crazy about Bedford. He probably trained a bit too hard, and clearly didn't peak at exactly the right times, but these are just quibbles--he was a very exciting and important figure.

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  • Conor Dary
    replied
    Originally posted by lovetorun
    Since Bedford has been mentioned on this thread, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents: Some might say that Bedford didn't amount to much, but I think he had guts and made many a race faster, honest and more exciting. I just wish he would have pushed the pace in the Munich 5000m!
    I don't recall anyone saying Bedford never amounted to much. WR holder, a great double in the AAA in 1972, And great stories such as winning the Southern AAAs Junior and Senior race CC on the same day!

    Now if he had only ran that 4:15 opening mile in the 5k, instead of the 10, in 1972, that would have been a race!

    Leave a comment:


  • 26mi235
    replied
    Pre only had one international championship during his running career. He finished fourth and determined the final selection. Bedford never was going to be a factor at the end of a race if he was within hailing distance. Pre was still in college and still learning; he was bullheaded and that is both good and bad; the bad was being tamed but we never saw the results. It is widely believed that Viren was blood doing at the time, something now that is clearly illegal - without Viren in the race, Pre was in a good position to win as the other two were content to sit in and might not have been able to match the change in pace.

    As for his demise, Moore makes a pretty good case that he did not die as a drunk driver simply driving off the road but as someone reacting to another driver out of position on a curve, hilly road.

    People often complain about athletes not being willing to test themselves against top foes; clearly not only that not one of Pre's weaknesses, but something he actively pushed against.

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  • lovetorun
    replied
    Since Bedford has been mentioned on this thread, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents: Some might say that Bedford didn't amount to much, but I think he had guts and made many a race faster, honest and more exciting. I just wish he would have pushed the pace in the Munich 5000m!

    Leave a comment:


  • Conor Dary
    replied
    Originally posted by John G
    Funny - I've read pretty much everything there is to read about Pre and seen the movies and I'd say that Bedford was every bit as charismatic and obviously a faster runner. My dad would argue Gordon Pirie beats them both!
    Pre was Pre. If you liked him great. If not....

    Having said that, my memories of Bedford in the 70's was he was kind of a nut at the time. 200+ miles weeks, the pellet gun incident, 59 opening 400 in the Munich 10. etc. Of course a great talent.

    As for Pirie. A great talent. I met PIrie in Boulder about 20 years ago. He was at Potts Field running around, giving advice to everyone. Only a couple of us knew who was.

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