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some philosophy on the Rankings [split]

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  • toyracer
    replied
    The reason I started this little exercise is that when the question of #1 arose I was comparing Jeter's '09 season to Asafa's '07 season because I thought I saw parallels. National Champions, Third in the WC, Fastest time of the year, Dominating the circuit post-WC and Winner of the WAF are some of the things that came to mind, linking Jeter to Asafa, pointing in the direction of the #2 ranking. As gh mentioned to me, an athlete cannot be looked at in a vacuum; the season of their peers must also be looked at as well, which lead me to the Asafa versus Gay and Jeter versus SAF posts.

    Before I started this I was inclined to think that SAF was an obvious choice for #1, but closer examination reveals that Jeter had a remarkable and long season, dominating her competition at the beginning and end of it. The crucial part though, the middle section, contained the World Championship and she faltered badly then. Jeter faltered, but SAF rose to the occasion, just as she did for her National Championship. In Berlin winning the World Championship she posted the fastest time in 10 years. The time is important because it showed that she didn't simply capitalize on bad performances by the other runners, she did her very best to ensure that she won.

    The ranking would seem to hinge on the importance of actually winning the World Championship. In '07 it was obviously more important than setting a new World Record and dominating the post-WC circuit. What I've taken from this is that I do not envy those who are in charge of the ranking system. That said, I'll have no problem with either Jeter or SAF being #1 as I can see the case for both.

    Leave a comment:


  • Smoke
    replied
    Originally posted by gh
    Abebe Bikila won the '64 Olympic marathon just 7 weeks after an appendectomy (and that would have been in the pre-laparoscopic days).
    Thanks gh. I really thought it was more crucial than that. Hernia's take longer to heal, as well as a grade 2 hamstring. Funny to think of for something that is not caught in time can be deadly.

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    Abebe Bikila won the '64 Olympic marathon just 7 weeks after an appendectomy (and that would have been in the pre-laparoscopic days).

    Leave a comment:


  • Smoke
    replied
    thanks toyracer. I can put appendectomy down as a regular issue now, judging by her words and the results of her races in April and May. I would have expected more of an impact but clearly this is a manageable issue. I am actually surprised it took so little time and had a much less impact than I would have thought.
    She has stated she missed 2-3 weeks.
    She came off those weeks and immediately ran a 200. WOW!!!
    TR you have also solidified my belief that this is a year where the WChamp will not be number one by default. The same way I felt about 1996, but we know how that turned out.

    Leave a comment:


  • toyracer
    replied
    Originally posted by Smoke
    Can someone confirm when the appendectomy was? If it was in April it only cost her approx. 2 weeks??? And she was back to running 22.3 or 4 by May? When was her surgery?
    Reports say April. 3 weeks missed.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/trackandf ... id=4405370

    http://www.soulrebelproductions.com/cms ... 17058.html

    http://dresonic.wordpress.com/category/ ... nn-fraser/

    http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/sports/h ... PETITE.asp

    It seems that a hamstring strain can be added to her injury list.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by Smoke
    Can someone confirm when the appendectomy was? If it was in April it only cost her approx. 2 weeks??? And she was back to running 22.3 or 4 by May? When was her surgery?
    It was that 'psychic surgery' where a swami reaches his hand into you and removes the problem with no incision.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_surgery

    Leave a comment:


  • jb
    replied
    Originally posted by toyracer
    Originally posted by gh
    Another set of relevant numbers is overall winning record:

    Jeter wins 14/18 (.778)
    gh, I've obviously missed 2 wins for Jeter, which are they?

    One observation: SAF certainly peaked when it counted; between the National Championships and the World Championships. Had a nice streak through that period.
    11.16 (-1.2) 1)Baie Mahault 5/1
    10.83 (-0.4) 1)Daegu 9/25

    Leave a comment:


  • Smoke
    replied
    Can someone confirm when the appendectomy was? If it was in April it only cost her approx. 2 weeks??? And she was back to running 22.3 or 4 by May? When was her surgery?

    Leave a comment:


  • toyracer
    replied
    Originally posted by gh
    Another set of relevant numbers is overall winning record:

    Jeter wins 14/18 (.778)
    gh, I've obviously missed 2 wins for Jeter, which are they?

    One observation: SAF certainly peaked when it counted; between the National Championships and the World Championships. Had a nice streak through that period.

    Leave a comment:


  • 26mi235
    replied
    Originally posted by gh
    Another set of relevant numbers is overall winning record:

    Jeter wins 14/18 (.778)
    Fraser 5/11 (.455)
    Jeter lost once other than to SAF; SAF lost two other times (since the record was 4-3 (J-SAF), thus was 2-2 in other races to Jeter's record of 10-1). I am slowly going into the 'I would vote fore Jeter' group from the 'I would vote for SAF' position that I held in August.

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    Another set of relevant numbers is overall winning record:

    Jeter wins 14/18 (.778)
    Fraser 5/11 (.455)

    Leave a comment:


  • toyracer
    replied
    Overview, 2009 season, Jeter and SAF. 100m races only.

    Carmelita Jeter. Ranked # ?

    Five fastest times.
    10.64 +1.2m/s Shanghai 20/9/2009
    10.67 -0.1m/s Thessaloniki 13/9/2009
    10.72 +3.0m/s Eugene 26/6/2009
    10.78 +3.3m/s Eugene 26/6/2009
    10.83 -0.1m/s Berlin 17/8/2009

    Wins.
    Mt. SAC Relays, Walnut 18/4/2009. USATF/NCAA. 10.96 +0.9m/s
    Addidas Track Classic, Carson 16/5/2009. Area Permit Meeting. 11.09 -0.9m/s
    Reebok Grand Prix, New York 30/5/2009. Grand Prix. 10.85 +2.8m/s
    Prefontaine Classic, Eugene 7/6/2009. Grand Prix. 10.85 +3.2m/s
    National Championships, Eugene 26/6/2009. USATF.Championships 10.78 +3.3m/s
    25th Vardinoyiannia, Rethimno 20/7/2009. Area Permit Meeting. 10.97 +1.3m/s
    Aviva London GP, London 24/7/2009. Super Grand Prix. 10.92 -0.1m/s
    Weltklasse, Zurich 28/8/2009. Golden League.10.86 +0.7m/s
    Aviva British GP, Gateshead 31/8/2009. Grand Prix 11.07 -0.9m/s
    Memorial Van Damme, Bruxelles. 4/9/2009 Golden League 10.88 +0.5m/s
    WAF, Thessaloniki 13/9/2009. World Athletic Final. 10.67 -0.1m/s
    Golden Grand Prix, Shanghai 20/9/2009. Grand Prix. 10.64 +1.2m/s

    Losses.
    Althessima, Lausanne 7/7/2009. Super Grand Prix. 11.06 0.0m/s (2nd place)
    Golden Gala, Rome 10/7/2009. Golden League. 11.10 +0.6m/s (4th place, heat)
    Golden Gala, Rome 10/7/2009. Golden League. 11.01 +0.4m/s (4th place, final)
    Athens GP, Athina 13/7/2009. Grand Prix. 11.02 +0.4m/s (2nd place)
    World Championships, Berlin 17/8/2009. World Championships. 10.90 +0.1m/s (3rd place)

    Reported injuries.
    Cramps, 100m final at USATF trials 26/6/2009


    Shelly Ann Fraser. Ranked # ?

    Five fastest times.
    10.73 +0.1m/s Berlin 17/8/2009
    10.79 -0.14m/s Berlin 17/8/2009
    10.88 -1.5m/s Kingston 27/6/2009
    10.89 -0.1m/s Thessalonki 13/9/2009
    10.91 0.0m/s Monaco 28/7/2009

    Wins.
    National Championships, Kingston 27/6/2009. JAAA Championships 10.88 -1.5m/s
    Althletissima, Lausanne 7/7/2009. Super Grand Prix 11.03 0.0m/s
    Golden Gala, Rome 10/7/2009. Golden League 11.13 -0.5m/s (heat)
    Herculis, Monaco 28/7/2009. Super Grand Prix 10.91 0.0m/s
    World Championships, Berlin 17/8/2009. World Championships. 10.73 +0.1m/s
    Rieti 2009, Rieti 6/9/2009. Grand Prix 11.18 -2.4m/s

    Losses.
    Jamaica International, Kingston 2/5/2009. Area Permit Meeting 11.15 +1.2m/s (4th place)
    Prefontaine Classic, Eugene 7/6/2009. Grand Prix 11.10 +3.2m/s (4th place)
    Golden Gala, Rome 10/7/2009. Golden League 10.91 +0.4m/s (2nd place)
    Weltklasse, Zurich 28/8/2009. Golden League 11.10 +0.7m/s (4th place)
    Memorial Van Damme, Bruxelles 4/9/2009 Golden League 10.98 +0.5m/s (2nd place)
    WAF, Thessaloniki 13/9/2009. World Athletic Final. 10.89 -0.1m/s (2nd place)

    Injuries
    Surgery, appendix April.

    Summary.
    Jeter wins 12 events. 1 NCAA/USATF. 2 Area Permit. 1 National Championship. 4 Grand Prix. 1 Super Grand Prix. 2 Golden League. 1 World Athletic Final.
    Jeter lost 4 events. 1 Grand Prix. 1 Super Grand Prix. 1 Golden League (2 races) 1 World Championship.
    SAF wins 5 events. 1 National Championship. 1 Grand Prix. 2 Super Grand Prix. 1 World Championship. (1 win listed above was a heat)
    SAF lost 6 events. 1 Area Permit Meeting. 1 Grand Prix. 3 Golden League. 1 World Athletic Final.
    SAF sets new national record.

    Head-to-head Jeter versus SAF; 4-3.

    Leave a comment:


  • 26mi235
    replied
    Originally posted by toyracer
    Overview, 2009 season, Jeter and SAF. 100m races only.

    Carmelita Jeter. Ranked # ?

    Five fastest times.
    10.64 +1.2m/s Shanghai 20/9/2009
    10.67 -0.1m/s Thessaloniki 13/9/2009
    10.78 +3.3m/s Eugene 26/6/2009
    10.83 -0.1m/s Berlin 17/8/2009
    10.83 -0.4 Daegu 25/9/2009

    Wins.
    WAF, Thessaloniki 13/9/2009. World Athletic Final. 13/9/2009 10.67 -0.1m/s
    add
    10.64 +1.2m/s Shanghai 20/9/2009
    and another far east meet (Japan?)


    Reported injuries.

    None.
    She pulled up at the very end of her Trials win in the 100 and then skipped the 200. Her loses came at that point.

    I'll do the breakdown for SAF tomorrow, time does not permit me to do it now.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Norwegian
    replied
    I think both Jeter and SAF deserve number one.
    And I think both Gay and Safa deserved it in 2007.
    If it was my list, I'd share it between them.
    But it's not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mighty Favog
    replied
    Agreed. The rankings are always described as not a guess as to who would win some kind of idealized competition, but an ordering of the accomplishments of each athlete over the season as a whole.

    Leave a comment:

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