Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

[Cerutty Boy]

Hello everyone,

I'm in the Urbana, Illinois area, following the progress of the U of I cross country and mid-distance/distance track runners. If anyone has any first-hand knowledge or experience of Mr. Pilkington, his training system, the U of I runners, etc, beyond what you can read in the papers please let me know. First hand knowledge and opinions are best, but if you care to speculate...

Thanks in advance.

[twinpeeks]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

My fondest memory of the lad was when he was pacing the LA Marathon and found himself feeling marvelous, so he went on to victory.

That was cool

[Brian]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

>That was cool

Was it? He was paid to be a rabbit, a designated runner who usually doesn't finish, was announced to the other athletes as a rabbit (their choice to follow him or not, depending on conditions and how the "real" race shaped up tacticly), and when he kept on going, the others believed he had dropped out.
He stole the race, and you can decide if he had a right to or not. But he was paid to do one thing and then did another when he found it was in his best interest to do so.

I'd never send any kid of mine to be coached by someone who so openly might sacrifice their athletic well-being for his own advancement as a coach.

[Asterix]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

> But he was paid to do one thing and then did another when he found it was
>in his best interest to do so.

Did he or did he not do what he was paid to do (run a predefined steady pace a certain distance of the race)?

Was there any clause in this rabbiting contract specifying that he was not to finish or was prohibited from running whatever pace he chose once he met the initial criteria?

I'd never send any kid of mine to be coached
>by someone who so openly might sacrifice their athletic well-being for his own
>advancement as a coach.

Unless you have evidence he violated his contract (and what other competitors may or may not have believed is irrelevant), then why would you have a problem with someone who upheld his side of an agreement?

Furthermore, how are you able to make the connection between his actions at LA and his treatment of athletes he coaches with respect to sacrificing their athletic well-being?

[No Name]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

Asterix: relax. Brian is not talking about his contract or the clauses therein. He is talking about the difference between right and wrong. In this case, he tricked other runners into thinking he wasn't competing and then went on to win the race. Who cares if this violates his contact or not? That is not the issue. One can easily make the case that this was morally wrong. Sometimes the question of right and wrong goes beyond a formal contract, naive or idealistic as it may seem.

[Asterix]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

How did he "trick" other runners into thinking he wasn't competing? Did he tell anyone he was going to drop out? Did the organizers tell the other elites he was going to drop out?

If he had a legal number, then shouldn't he be considered part of the field? It's not like it was the first time a hired rabbit ran their pace and beat the rest of the field. Do you think Tergat would have complained after Berlin had first and second places been reversed?

As relaxed as I may be, I completely fail to see how this is a moral question of right and wrong.

Isn't this like someone who buys a convertable and then complains to the dealer when they get wet after failing to raise the roof at the onset of storm clouds?

[MJR]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

The specifics here are that Paul was paid to run a certain pace for a group of athletes. He was never told that he could not finish. The athletes he was supposed to pace decided on their own to run slower and were about a mile back at the 20 mile mark. Paul felt good and kept running, winning the race. The runners who were to use his pacing made a conscious decision to forego his help and suffered in their own stupidity.

Caveat Emptor!

[Brian]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

>between his actions at LA and his treatment of athletes he coaches with respect
>to sacrificing their athletic well-being?

The gentleman above asked for my opinion and I gave it to him. Obviously my opinion is based on the facts AS I KNOW THEM. If you know other facts, give them and give your opinion. Focus, focus.

Letter and intent of the contract aside for a moment, everyone involved in running back then knew what being a rabbit entailed. Including him. That he decided to go for the win when he knew beforehand everyone else in the race was led to believe he wouldn't continue shows at the very least questionable ethics and an opportunistic leaning. He might not have violated the letter of his rabbiting contract, but he surely did violate the intent. As I said, I wouldn't want any of my kids coached by someone with these non-principles.

There were a lot of problems because of his actions, some could have had legal repercussions. Hell of a payback for a race director taking care of you financially. I'm sure the cry will be a breakdown in communication, but that is an old rationalization. And as far as anyone excusing his actions because of a technicality, well, that's getting into O.J. Simpson territory, and I don't think anyone wants to go there.

[MJD]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

No one ever wants to take responsibility for their actions anymore. Everything is everyone else's fault. That's why Law Dude probably does so well. Fortunately for the US, this kind of nonsense is being exported to other countries. Well, all is fair in love and war:

"The elite-athlete coordinator of the race, however, was quoted at the time as saying no promises were ever made that Pilkington would step off the course."

Discussion closed.

http://www.boston.com/marathon/stories/ ... ter+.shtml

[Asterix]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

> He might not have violated
>the letter of his rabbiting contract, but he surely did violate the intent.

Unless you can quote otherwise, I'd say it's safe to say the intent of his contract was to run a predefined pace through a predefined distance with the hope that others would use this service. Period.

As
>I said, I wouldn't want any of my kids coached by someone with these
>non-principles.

Again with the "non-principles". Simply saying that does not make it so. All you've provided to support that is that his actions did not meet what YOU would have wished for.

>There were a lot of problems because of his actions, some
>could have had legal repercussions.

Legal repercussions such as...?

> And as far as anyone
>excusing his actions because of a technicality, well, that's getting into O.J.
>Simpson territory, and I don't think anyone wants to go there.

Comparing this to OJ? Now that is grasping at straws.

[KLocke]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

I was there in LA. He was so far ahead and I for one appreciated his efforts as a spectator.

Thanks Paul



>>That was cool

Was it? He was paid to be a rabbit, a designated runner who
>usually doesn't finish, was announced to the other athletes as a rabbit (their
>choice to follow him or not, depending on conditions and how the "real" race
>shaped up tacticly), and when he kept on going, the others believed he had
>dropped out.
He stole the race, and you can decide if he had a right to or
>not. But he was paid to do one thing and then did another when he found it was
>in his best interest to do so.

I'd never send any kid of mine to be coached
>by someone who so openly might sacrifice their athletic well-being for his own
>advancement as a coach.

[MJD]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

What makes me laugh about turning this into some kind of moral debate about right and wrong is that USATF rule 66.3 states that "any competitor competing to lose ... shall forfeit the right to be in the competition and shall be disqualified."
So now we want guidelines about activities that are just winked at in the first place. Can you say Tom Byers?

[Brian]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

>Unless you can quote otherwise, I'd say it's
>safe to say the intent of his contract was to run a predefined pace through a
>predefined distance with the hope that others would use this service.
>Period.

You have this totally backward. This is the LETTER of a contract.

>Again with the "non-principles". Simply
>saying that does not make it so. All you've provided to support that is that
>his actions did not meet what YOU would have wished for.

Read it again. You don't get it.


>There were a lot
>of problems because of his actions, some
>could have had legal
>repercussions.

>Legal repercussions such as...?

Such as lawsuits by the parties involved over whom gets what prize money. What else could you be thinking?

> And as far as
>anyone
>excusing his actions because of a technicality, well, that's getting
>into O.J.
>Simpson territory, and I don't think anyone wants to go
>there.

>Comparing this to OJ? Now that is grasping at >straws.

No, I'm not comparing it to O.J. I'm saying IF anyone else wants to claim Pilkington didn't do anything wrong because "technically" it couldn't be proven otherwise (as in vagueness of the wording in his contract), then THEY are getting into O.J. territory. Not same level of wrong or same degree of damage, of course--don't be silly!--but the same concept.

Just out of curiousity, how old are you? I don't mind repeating myself for a younger person, but an older person should be able to understand abstract and concrete concepts and I won't bother anymore if you are just a Pilkington fan.

[No Name]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

<<How did he "trick" other runners into thinking he wasn't competing? Did he tell anyone he was going to drop out? Did the organizers tell the other elites he was going to drop out?>>

It was assumed that he would drop out, as rabbits almost always do.

<<If he had a legal number, then shouldn't he be considered part of the field? It's not like it was the first time a hired rabbit ran their pace and beat the rest of the field. Do you think Tergat would have complained after Berlin had first and second places been reversed?>>

He should not be considered part of the field. His job is to take the field THROUGH A CERTAIN POINT at a defined pace. Your view seems to be that his responsibilities are limited to running at a defined pace. Maybe his contract didn't state that he should stop at some point; but again, I am talking about the spirit and not the letter of his contract. Watch a few rabbitted races in Golden League meets; the commentators almost always state at the beginning of the race that the rabbit's job is to take the field through a certain distance at a certain speed. This may not be the first time a rabbit has finished the race, but rabbits almost always drop out.

<<As relaxed as I may be, I completely fail to see how this is a moral question of right and wrong.>>

It is a question of right and wrong because the other runners did not know that he was a competitor for the full race. The fact that they did not know this obviously affected their strategy. If you line up at the starting line of a race, you should know who you're competing against. If the other runners had known that he would stay in for the full race, don't you think a few of them would have tried to run with him?

<<Isn't this like someone who buys a convertable and then complains to the dealer when they get wet after failing to raise the roof at the onset of storm clouds?>>

No. The LA Marathon runners were acting under a reasonable assumption (given standard rabbitting practice) that the rabbit would drop out. The person who fails to raise the roof in a storm is merely stupid.

[MJD]

Re: Your opinions, please, regarding Paul Pilkington

Just out of curiousity, how old are you? I don't mind repeating
>myself for a younger person, but an older person should be able to understand
>abstract and concrete concepts and I won't bother anymore if you are just a
>Pilkington fan.

LOL. He's not just a "Pilkington fan" and I don't think he has too much trouble with abstract concepts.