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Clement =WJR in 400

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  • basis
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    Here is all sub age-20 100m performances sub 10.10 sorted on time

    Seun Ogunkoya was 19y and 197d in Formia 13.07.1997 when running 9.97
    Carl Lewis was 19y and 319d in Dallas 16.05.1981 when running 10.00
    Francis Obikwelu was 19y and 229d in Oslo 09.07.1998 when running 10.01
    Darrell Brown was 18y and 317d in Saint-Denis 24.08.2003 when running 10.01
    Deji Aliu was 19y and 116d in Bauchi 18.03.1995 when running 10.02
    Matthew Shirvington was 19y and 327d in Kuala Lumpur 17.09.1998 when running 10.03
    Davidson Ezinwa was 19y and 254d in Lagos 02.08.1991 when running 10.04
    Mark Lewis-Francis was 19y and 304d in Saint-Denis 05.07.2002 when running 10.04
    Davidson Ezinwa was 18y and 42d in Bauchi 03.01.1990 when running 10.05
    Dwain Chambers was 19y and 111d in Ljubljana 25.07.1997 when running 10.06
    Francis Obikwelu was 19y and 210d in Lisboa 20.06.1998 when running 10.06
    Francis Obikwelu was 19y and 229d in Oslo 09.07.1998 when running 10.06
    Mark Lewis-Francis was 19y and 312d in Birmingham 13.07.2002 when running 10.06
    Stanley Floyd was 18y and 335d in Austin 24.05.1980 when running 10.07
    Matthew Shirvington was 19y and 321d in Johannesburg 11.09.1998 when running 10.07
    Mark Lewis-Francis was 19y and 284d in Manchester 15.06.2002 when running 10.07
    Dabryan Blanton was 18y and 331d in Lincoln 30.05.2003 when running 10.07
    André Cason was 19y and 155d in Tallahassee 24.06.1988 when running 10.08
    Obadele Thompson was 18y and 17d in El Paso 16.04.1994 when running 10.08
    Francis Obikwelu was 19y and 210d in Lisboa 20.06.1998 when running 10.08
    Francis Obikwelu was 19y and 263d in Zürich 12.08.1998 when running 10.08
    Justin Gatlin was 19y and 112d in Eugene 02.06.2001 when running 10.08
    Mark Lewis-Francis was 19y and 360d in Bruxelles 30.08.2002 when running 10.08
    Darrell Brown was 18y and 225d in Eugene 24.05.2003 when running 10.08
    Darrell Brown was 18y and 318d in Saint-Denis 25.08.2003 when running 10.08
    Mel Lattany was 18y and 355d in Colorado Springs 30.07.1978 when running 10.09
    Davidson Ezinwa was 18y and 42d in Bauchi 03.01.1990 when running 10.09
    Davidson Ezinwa was 19y and 254d in Lagos 02.08.1991 when running 10.09
    Francis Obikwelu was 19y and 263d in Zürich 12.08.1998 when running 10.09
    Darrell Brown was 17y and 279d in Kingston 17.07.2002 when running 10.09

    Leave a comment:


  • Powell
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    >The examples you gave are nit picky, made
    >up situations to attempt to prove a point ... I >am talking reality here ...

    Made up, you say ? Here are a couple of real examples:
    The last edition of World Junior Champs took place from 16th till 21th July 2002. The US Junior Nationals that year took place on 21-21 June.
    Now, assuming you had your way :
    Pole vaulter Amy Linnen (best in the US in her age category, SB 4.31, would be a serious medal candidate in Kingston), born 15 July 1982, could compete in the junior nationals, would have most probably won, but as her birthday was one day before the start of the WJCh - no global medals for her...
    400 meter runner Otis Harris (ran 45.42 in 2002) - born 30 June 1982, same situation.

    Ethiopian 800 meter runner Berhanu Alemu (1:45.35 in 2002, serious medal chances), born 16 July 1982: the heats in Kingston took place on his birthday, so he could be allowed to run there, but he definitely wouldn't be eligible for the semis on the next day...
    The German Rene Herms, competing in the same event (1:45.85 in 2002, another serious contender), born 17 July 1982: he'd be OK for the heats and semis, but the final would be a no-no...
    British javelin thrower Katharine Sayers (58.20 in 2002, easily good enough for gold in Kingston), born 16 July 1982: the qualifying was taking place on her birthday, the final was the day after...

    Now, what would you do in those cases?

    Leave a comment:


  • jla
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    >Defining the competitive season as ending say the final day of September since
    >few meets are ever conducted past that point ...

    Wonder if those living on the southern hemisphere (Australia, South Africa, ....) agree.

    Leave a comment:


  • DentyCracker
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    exactly tafnut

    Leave a comment:


  • tafnut
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    I'm afraid I don't understand the argument against the current rules about being a junior. What could be more clear - you are a teenager for the entire year in question. Making the cutoff be in September (or any interior month) would make no sense, because there ARE competitions in all 12 calendar months. So if you're born Aug 31 you're NOT OK, but Sep 1 you are? The demarcation is obviously always going to be an arbitrary one, so calendar year IS the most logical. Soccer, for some totally unknown reason has Sep 1 as its determining date for youth teams, and it is a source of huge disgruntlement. Calendar year is the only way to go.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sprint Stat Man
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    >>Which is 10.00 by
    >Carl Lewis in 1981

    No, it's 9.97 by Seun Ogunkoya in
    >1997.

    Born December 28 1977, 9.97 in Formia July 13 1997.

    100m men born in Jan/Feb:

    Tim Montgomery
    Leroy Burrell
    Andre Cason (WJC)
    Tim Harden
    Calvin Smith (junior star)
    Bernard Williams
    Dennis Mitchell
    Shawn Crawford
    Justin Gatlin (junior star)
    Percy Spencer

    Born in Nov/Dec:

    Ben Johnson
    Ato Boldon (b Dec 30, yet double WJC)
    Seun Ogunkoya (WJ silver)
    Davidson Ezinwa (WJC)
    Deji Aliu (WJC)
    Francis Obikwelu (WJC)
    Eric Nkansah
    Jeff Williams

    Darrel Brown (WJC) was born Oct 11 84.

    Funny that so many junior 100m stars were born late in the year. Under Conway's rule they would all have had another year as a junior. Ogunkoya would have a WJR of 9.97. Obikwelu ran 10.01 at 19, Ezinwa 10.04, Aliu 10.02. Matt Shirvington was 19 when he ran 10.03 at the CG in 98.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sprintstatman
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    >Which is 10.00 by
    >Carl Lewis in 1981

    No, it's 9.97 by Seun Ogunkoya in 1997.

    Leave a comment:


  • Conway
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    >>And reality is that should Brown run 9.99 or better this year he will NOT be
    >the WJR holder in spite of the fact that when the competitive season is over he
    >will STILL be 19 years old !!!<

    But he is not and will not be a Junior,
    >which is different from being a 19-year old.

    The examples Powell game may
    >have been made up but they are real possibilities. People do have birthdays
    >every single day of the year. If a guy was born on July 1 (as Carl Lewis was,
    >among others) and was born in 1984, and we defined Junior by birth date rather
    >than birth year, he could compete in the US Juniors in late June this year but
    >not the World Juniors three weeks later. I agree with Powell that this would
    >not be a good idea.

    The definition of a Junior has been this way for as
    >long as I can remember and it works just fine.

    BTW, they do the same thing
    >in horse racing.


    Simply because something has always been done that way is not cause in and of itself to continue .. Progress occurs when the status quo changes ... Thank God Abe Lincoln didn't think that way ...

    The previous example that was given regarding Angelo Taylor is exactly the kind of injustice that has and will continue to occur under the current status quo ... What harm would be caused by simply stating that the individual has to maintain that age throughout the competitive season ??? Defining the competitive season as ending say the final day of September since few meets are ever conducted past that point ... And in those few cases where they do - say the meet is in October for some ghastly reason - that a mark is allowed if the individual is still age 19 ??? What would that hurt (or change) other than the obvious changing something that has always been ??? I don't remember any of you crying when MJ asked for the Olympics themselves to be changed so he could comfortably complete his double ... So what is the harm in allowing 19 year olds the right/ability to attempt to break Junior records ???

    Leave a comment:


  • ilikeike
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    Not to be nit-picky, but the cut off needs to be somewhere and the calendar year is fairly clear to understand. As a foot note, Angelo Taylor missed out on a truly impressive WJ record by 3 days. His birth day is De. 29. In 1998, as sophomore at Ga.Tech, he ran 47.90 and was world ranked #3. He was born in 1978. If he had been born Jan 1, 1979 he would have crushed Danny Harris' 48.02 WJ record. Of course, he was ineligible for the World Jr that year as well. I think he would have been favored :-)

    Leave a comment:


  • tandfman
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    >And reality is that should Brown run 9.99 or better this year he will NOT be the WJR holder in spite of the fact that when the competitive season is over he will STILL be 19 years old !!!<

    But he is not and will not be a Junior, which is different from being a 19-year old.

    The examples Powell game may have been made up but they are real possibilities. People do have birthdays every single day of the year. If a guy was born on July 1 (as Carl Lewis was, among others) and was born in 1984, and we defined Junior by birth date rather than birth year, he could compete in the US Juniors in late June this year but not the World Juniors three weeks later. I agree with Powell that this would not be a good idea.

    The definition of a Junior has been this way for as long as I can remember and it works just fine.

    BTW, they do the same thing in horse racing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Conway
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    Sorry, but it is assinine that Brown and Clement will both be 19 throught the entire competitive season of being 19 and yet will NOT qualify for WJR status should they break those records !!! The examples you gave are nit picky, made up situations to attempt to prove a point ... I am talking reality here ... And reality is that should Brown run 9.99 or better this year he will NOT be the WJR holder in spite of the fact that when the competitive season is over he will STILL be 19 years old !!! Same will go for Clement next year should he break the 400H record ... And in both cases the "Age 19" Record would be BETTER than the WJR - which is supposed to represent the Under 20 athlete ... THAT is assinine ... The cases you gave could be judiciously dealt with ... The cases I describe make the sport look stupid ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Powell
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    My misunderstanding as I thought that one had to be
    >under 20 when the record was set in order to qualify ... Seems like another
    >case of our sport having a rather assinine rule ...

    No, it isn't. It would be assinine if athletes could be considered juniors for part of the season and not for the rest of it. Imagine the following situations:
    - The World Juniors host country has a major medal hope whose 20th birthday falls 1 day before the World Juniors Champs start. They make a major push to reschedule the event to gain an additional medal. Conversely, they could try to postpone the champs by a few days to eliminate a competitor who is a major threat to the local hope.
    - An athlete is eligible to compete in the US Juniors, which serve as the trials for World Juniors. He qualifies, but is unable to compete because he turns 20 in the meantime. To make it even more nonsensical, an athlete could be eligible to compete in the heats, qualify for the final (which takes place, say, 2 days later) and not be able to compete in it because he's no longer a junior.

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  • Conway
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    >>Unless my math is bad the kid will be 19 throughout the season and last time
    >I
    >checked 19 year olds were Juniors are they not ???

    Love to know where
    >you 'checked'. To be a junior in 2004 means to be born 1985 or later; to be a
    >junior in 2005 means to be born 1986 or later. Darrel Brown, for example,
    >though born in October 84 and thus 19 all this season, is not a junior this
    >year, though he may well break the world age 19 record for 100m (which
    >is?...your chance to redeem yourself Conway).


    Which is 10.00 by Carl Lewis in 1981 ... My misunderstanding as I thought that one had to be under 20 when the record was set in order to qualify ... Seems like another case of our sport having a rather assinine rule ... Pity for both Brown and Clement as neither will end up getting the respect they will be do ... Given of course that they perform up to expectations ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Sprint Stat Man
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    >Unless my math is bad the kid will be 19 throughout the season and last time I
    >checked 19 year olds were Juniors are they not ???

    Love to know where you 'checked'. To be a junior in 2004 means to be born 1985 or later; to be a junior in 2005 means to be born 1986 or later. Darrel Brown, for example, though born in October 84 and thus 19 all this season, is not a junior this year, though he may well break the world age 19 record for 100m (which is?...your chance to redeem yourself Conway).

    Leave a comment:


  • tandfman
    replied
    Re: Clement =WJR in 400

    Now that I re-read Conway's original message, I see that there was no mis-understanding. He WAS referring to next year's indoor season (since the context was the indoor junior 400m record) and he was wrong, for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

    Leave a comment:

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