Bryan Clay's place in history

[dbirds]

With Clay winning the World Indoor Hept last month, I began to wonder his place in history. Clay has an Olympic gold and silver. One World Championship gold and now 2 World Indoor Golds along with 2 World Indoor Silvers.

I currently have in my all-time top 10. Questions - if he wins gold in London, how high does he go? #1? Does he need a WR to be #1 ever? What if he gets a silver or bronze in London? Top 5 ever? What would another World Champ gold or two do?? Just wondering...

[gh]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

Without actually addressing the larger question at hand, indoor titles don't count for much. When you're talking "greatest ever" talk, a title that didn't exist until '93 isn't all that significant. Similarly, in an all-time sense, even the WC hasn't been around all that long, and with a title available every two years, it's "easy" to rack up what look like superior credentials to someof the ancients, who never had the advantage of there even being a WC.

Without a WR Clay probably doesn't make it into the top 10 (at least not my personal one).

[26mi235]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

On the other hand, being at the top for the BIG event three years out of four is pretty demanding for the decathlon. If someone succeeds in getting all the marbles for a couple of cycles that would be very impressive in my book.

[IanS_Liv]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

He's got a way to go before he can top Thompson and Sebrle, who in my list contest the top spot. He needs at least two OGs, a WC and a WR before he can contend with them.

[dbirds]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

GH, I understand the importance of a WR but if he wins Olympic gold in London, he's gotta be in the top 10 for sure and I would suspect top 5. That would mean we won silver in 2004 and gold in both 2008 and 2012 - something no other decathlete could beat.

[bhall]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

Off the top of my head-

Guy named Mathias with 2xOG and a WR probably should be mentioned in the conversation. Cambpell and Johnson both set WRs and won the same medals Clay has now. All three were in the pre-professional era.

[Guest]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

I understand the point that counting WC medals may be unfair to those athletes before the WC era.

BUT, couldn't you also argue that there is better competition currently and that makes it so much harder to win medals than in the pre-WC era?

For multi athletes being known for being injured for a season or so at a time, winning many medals is (to me) more remarkable than say, a 400m specialist, winning the same number of medals.

I didn't realize how much Sebrle had done until I read the article posted on the front page a few days ago: http://www.iaaf.org/WCE10/news/newsid=56367.html

[twinpeeks]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

World Indoor is useless. World Outdoor counts. And he clearly was not the best in the World on that day in Doha. College athlete was indeed.

I understand the point that counting WC medals may be unfair to those athletes before the WC era.

BUT, couldn't you also argue that there is better competition currently and that makes it so much harder to win medals than in the pre-WC era?

For multi athletes being known for being injured for a season or so at a time, winning many medals is (to me) more remarkable than say, a 400m specialist, winning the same number of medals.

I didn't realize how much Sebrle had done until I read the article posted on the front page a few days ago: http://www.iaaf.org/WCE10/news/newsid=56367.html

[dbirds]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

Sorry I mentioned World Indoors..even throwing them out, he has a good body of work! Back to the original question, if Clay win gold in London, is he best ever? what about gold with a WR along the way? Or even a gold or two in World Champs? I know its tough to speculate but at age 30, he has a great resume and he doesnt appear to be slowing down (or much anyway). I think Clay has a chance to be the GOAT at this event and should at least be top 10 or top 5 when his career is over. Now Id like to hear from some more educated people than myself on this.

[tandfman]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

Back to the original question, if Clay win gold in London, is he best ever?

No.

I think Clay has a chance to be the GOAT at this event and should at least be top 10 or top 5 when his career is over. Now Id like to hear from some more educated people than myself on this.

There's a big difference between being the GOAT and being in the top 10. To be the GOAT, he'd need at least a WR and another World or Olympic win or two.

[dbirds]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

You are saying 2 Olympic golds, a world champ gold and a Olympic silver would not place him as a goat? I agree a WR would be nice but that would be an awesome resume there!

[odelltrclan]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

If he wins in London he is definitely in the conversation for GOAT, maybe not the best, but right up there. London is a long way away and a lot can happen. I have a feeling he might improve on his best before then, but maybe not enough for the WR.

[26mi235]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

Multiple eras ago, but Thorpe was more than a little bit good. Look how long it took for the world to catch up with him. And, the decathlon did not exhaust is athletic range.

[LopenUupunut]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

Clay needs more than Oly/WC golds to be a serious GOAT candidate. Practically all other candidates have a WR to show, multiple WRs in most cases. Clay's PB is currently ~200 points away (for what it's worth, I don't see him improving it). The strongest candidates have major wins against very strong opponents to show, for example Thompson repeatedly against Hingsen. Clay has a mixed record against Šebrle, including a loss in '04 OG (when both were close to peak form), and has never won a decathlon in which someone else scored 8600 or higher - again, not remotely comparable. Bob Mathias, in the absence of such strong opponents in '52, beat them by a full event to improve the WR by a heap; Clay, nope.

[gh]

Re: Bryan Clay's place in history

To help illustrate just how far Clay has to go to even be the No.1 American (ignoring here the likes of Daley Thompson and Roman Sebrle):

Americans who set World Records:
6564 Jim Thorpe '12
6248 Harold Osborn '23
6476 Osborn '24
6736 Jim Bausch '32
7213 Glenn Morris '36
7254 Morris '36
7287 Bob Mathias '50
7287 Mathias '52
7592 Mathias '52
7608 Rafer Johnson '55
7789 Johnson '58
7981 Johnson '60
8050 Phil Mulkey '61
8096 Bill Toomey '66
8120 Russ Hodge '66
8310 Toomey '69
8420 Bruce Jenner '75
8454 Jenner '76
8634 Jenner '76
8891 Dan O'Brien '92

Americans who won Olympic gold:
Jim Thorpe '12; Harold Osborn '24; Jim Bausch '32; Glenn Morris '36; Bob Mathias '48 & '52; Milt Campbell '56; Rafer Johnson '60; Bill Toomey '68; Bruce Jenner '76; Dan O'Brien '96; Bryan Clay '08.

Americans who won World Champs gold:
Dan O'Brien '91, '93 & '95; Tom Pappas '03; Bryan Clay '05; Trey Hardee '09.

Americans with No. 1 World Rankings:
Bob Mathias '49, '50, '51, '52; Milt Campbell '53 & '56; Bob Richards '54; Rafer Johnson '55, '58 & '60; Bill Toomey '66, '68 & '69; Bruce Jenner '74, '75 & '76; Fred Dixon '77; Bob Coffman '79; Dan O'Brien '91, '93, '94, '95, '96 & '98; Tom Pappas '03; Bryan Clay '05, '06 & '08; Trey Hardee '09.

(World Rankings don't start until '47; obviously all those in the previous years who had WRs and/or Oly gold also had No. 1s that year, and perhaps others)

Clay doesn't even crack the top 5 for overall body of work yet. (Top 5 Americans that is)