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  • #31
    Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

    Originally posted by 3
    You did single out Mr M Mastalir and Mr Quintana, so rebuttals were to be expected.
    Did either of them become elite world class runners? Did either of them make any Olympic or World championship teams? Did either of them win any NCAA titles? I saw the Mastalir twins up close and personal. Shoot, I ran in a relay race against them one time in 1986. Suffice to say they blew the rest of the field away. I thought both of them were going to be America's next great distance runners. I was very surprised that they didn't.

    "awfully impressive" is what you wanted everyone interested to buy into. From the get-go, we have had differing opinions of what that oxymoron defines of high school soph times. Why Webb? He did something of great note in that grade.
    You are reading way too much into my post. How in the world did you get "is what you wanted everyone interested to buy into"? Did I say the Fahy was the greatest sophomore runner ever? Did I say that Fahy was better as a sophomore than Webb, Ryun, and host of other great high school runners of the past? It seems to me you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. Fahy caught my eye because he's running some pretty fast times for a sophomore. And that was all I was trying to say, nothing more. Fahy is part of a great number of top notch high school runners right now. Shoot, when Fahy broke 9:00 for 3200m at the CIF meet he finished in 8th place.

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    • #32
      Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

      Originally posted by gavinshmavin
      Originally posted by 3
      "awfully impressive" is what you wanted everyone interested to buy into. From the get-go, we have had differing opinions of what that oxymoron defines of high school soph times. Why Webb? He did something of great note in that grade.
      It's just semantics, of course, but I think "awfully impressive" is a fair description of 4:12/8:59 as a soph. Both are probably among the top-20 all-time soph performances.

      I'll agree that Webb, among others, is *more* than awfully impressive!
      Breaking any of Jim Ryun's high school records is by definition awfully impressive!

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      • #33
        Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

        Wow.

        Thirty-one posts (and counting) and not one even so much as acknowledges the fact that all these athletes have world-class coaches who are able to guide them to achieving their potential.

        And before these athletes get to the open ranks, they all had collegiate coaches who were learned in human physiology/exercise science and took a long-term view with their charges (as opposed to the "what can you do for ME under the guise of what can you do for "your school" in the four years I have you to exploit and eventually destroy" mentality. These coaches wanted their stars to continue on to Olympic medals.

        Do the names Lananna, Wetmore, Kerzie, Salazar, Schumacher, Hart--just for starters--register at all?


        About 10 years ago, a very good friend of mine who is otherwise very knowledgeable about track & field made the comment that US distance running has turned around because of the inspiration kids got from the two Prefontaine movies. I pointed out to him that if he checked the high school lists every year, he would quickly see that the talent has been there all along. I also asked him how many high school kids he had seen--in any sport--who weren't already highly motivated. Then I pointed out to him the relative wealth of highly-knowledgeable coaches that were making their presence known at all levels in this country, as opposed to (with exceptions, of course) the babysitters, weekend warriors, and manipulative self-servers who had been running the show. To attribute the successful development of athletes at any level in this country to a couple of borderline B movies about a long-dead runner is a complete slap in the face to the people behind the scenes working their butts off to cultivate success for their athletes.

        Watching a movie or reading an inspiring story about an athlete may get someone out the door to run, but it is the hard work of a dedicated coach providing structure to that running that will get them to the awards podium. Period.

        This is simply another version of the moronic "those who can, do, those who can't, teach (coach)" idea that puts forth the idea that any/all coaches are merely riding along on the coattails of the athlete.


        Why are people so quick to credit the individual--good genetics--and not say a word about the person setting up the training that allows those good genetics to achieve their optimum potential?


        Great coaching--as in what the Moroccan and Ethiopians national teams, just for two quick examples, have done before us, training structured to develop the potential of their athletes. That, people, is--and has been for close to a decade now, which we are enjoying the results of now--the reason for it all.

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        • #34
          Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

          Good points Brian. Obviously, great coaching is vital to developing great runners. Do you think great coaching was lacking in the 80's and 90's? As for inspiration I think it was Ryan Hall who said that Alan Webb going sub 4:00 was an inspiration to him to others in that it showed other teen runners what was really possible.

          As a kid I was a huge fan of Seb Coe, Ovett, Steve Scott, and especially Alberto Salazar. I took it running partly because watching them do their thing on the track and roads seemed like such fun. A good friend of mine in 7th grade (1980) asked me to join the x-country team. After my first race I was hooked!

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          • #35
            Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

            I have witnessed one of these coaches (JS) learning how to hone in on what different athletes need and need to avoid (e.g., Tegenkamp, who grew a LOT in college and was injury-prone as a result, learning what would get him ready without being so likely to injure him). In addition, how he communicates with athletes and works with a whole team. Some hard lessons that were paid attention to, with the learning fitting in to a larger scheme.

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            • #36
              Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

              Originally posted by 4:24-miler
              Originally posted by 3
              You did single out Mr M Mastalir and Mr Quintana, so rebuttals were to be expected.
              Did either of them become elite world class runners? Did either of them make any Olympic or World championship teams? Did either of them win any NCAA titles? I saw the Mastalir twins up close and personal. Shoot, I ran in a relay race against them one time in 1986. Suffice to say they blew the rest of the field away. I thought both of them were going to be America's next great distance runners. I was very surprised that they didn't.
              You must have had competed at West Valley Relays in the 4xmile against Jesuit of Carmichael, CA, which eventually did produce Mr Michael Stember. Mr Eric Mastalir did run 14'01 at world juniors. Jesuit did manufacture 2-3 more 3200M state champions following Mr. Eric Mastalir's 8'44"95, including Mr Paul Thomas' 4'08 - 2nd-place and 9'02 - victory) the following year.

              It becomes a stretch to attribute cause to coaches for the lack of continued improvement at the NCAA level. Stanford did have Mr Jeff Atkinson - a future Olympian - at the same time the Mastalir twins donned the Cardinal uniforms.
              Fire Impossible.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

                Originally posted by 4:24-miler
                Fahy happens to run in CA one of the toughest states in the US. Would it matter if Fahy ran his times South Dakota or Alaska?
                As a matter of fact, it would make a difference if a sophomore from Iowa was running under 9'00, bc there is not the same level of competition locally.
                Fire Impossible.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

                  Originally posted by 4:24-miler
                  Good points Brian. Obviously, great coaching is vital to developing great runners. Do you think great coaching was lacking in the 80's and 90's? As for inspiration I think it was Ryan Hall who said that Alan Webb going sub 4:00 was an inspiration to him to others in that it showed other teen runners what was really possible.

                  As a kid I was a huge fan of Seb Coe, Ovett, Steve Scott, and especially Alberto Salazar. I took it running partly because watching them do their thing on the track and roads seemed like such fun. A good friend of mine in 7th grade (1980) asked me to join the x-country team. After my first race I was hooked!
                  I agree with you inspiration is important (as are other factors).

                  But I firmly believe that without a good progressive training program that is geared toward helping the individual athlete maximize their potential, nothing will come of anything that athlete brings to the table--good genetics, work ethic, inspired motivation to succeed, etc-- other than eventual failure and frustration.

                  Salazar, for one example, is a person who had great coaching in the form of Bill Dellinger. As an open athlete in the new money/greater opportunities for competition beyond the every four-years Olympic games, Salazar took his hard-work ethic and inspiration to be the best in the world and--ignoring Dellinger's warnings--ran himself into the ground.

                  I'm not being a jerk mentioning Salazar; I, too, admired his racing example. But it is public knowledge (as he, himself has said, many times) he didn't see The Big Picture, ignored his coach and eventually overdid it.

                  And it is this very same Big Picture lesson he has used as a coach to successfully bring his athletes along in a way to avoid the mistakes he, and others, have made. I had great respect for him as a competitor then and I have respect beyond words for him now that he has dedicated himself to helping these others and raising the bar for the USA (and world, for that matter).

                  I hope others will have that respect for him and all the other coaches guiding the star athletes as they achieve great things in the sport we all love.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

                    Originally posted by Brian
                    Originally posted by 4:24-miler
                    Good points Brian. Obviously, great coaching is vital to developing great runners. Do you think great coaching was lacking in the 80's and 90's? As for inspiration I think it was Ryan Hall who said that Alan Webb going sub 4:00 was an inspiration to him to others in that it showed other teen runners what was really possible.

                    As a kid I was a huge fan of Seb Coe, Ovett, Steve Scott, and especially Alberto Salazar. I took it running partly because watching them do their thing on the track and roads seemed like such fun. A good friend of mine in 7th grade (1980) asked me to join the x-country team. After my first race I was hooked!
                    I agree with you inspiration is important (as are other factors).

                    But I firmly believe that without a good progressive training program that is geared toward helping the individual athlete maximize their potential, nothing will come of anything that athlete brings to the table--good genetics, work ethic, inspired motivation to succeed, etc-- other than eventual failure and frustration.

                    Salazar, for one example, is a person who had great coaching in the form of Bill Dellinger. As an open athlete in the new money/greater opportunities for competition beyond the every four-years Olympic games, Salazar took his hard-work ethic and inspiration to be the best in the world and--ignoring Dellinger's warnings--ran himself into the ground.

                    I'm not being a jerk mentioning Salazar; I, too, admired his racing example. But it is public knowledge (as he, himself has said, many times) he didn't see The Big Picture, ignored his coach and eventually overdid it.

                    And it is this very same Big Picture lesson he has used as a coach to successfully bring his athletes along in a way to avoid the mistakes he, and others, have made. I had great respect for him as a competitor then and I have respect beyond words for him now that he has dedicated himself to helping these others and raising the bar for the USA (and world, for that matter).

                    I hope others will have that respect for him and all the other coaches guiding the star athletes as they achieve great things in the sport we all love.
                    I do remember reading about how Salazar tried to be in peak form for x-country in the winter, track in the spring and summer, and running a fast marathon in the fall. Eventually it caught up with him.

                    Another runner I really admired was Pat Porter for going from a good, but not elite high school runner, to eight time national x-country champion and two time Olympian. I think Porter is the perfect example of your point of what great coaching and long term planning can accomplish, Brain.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

                      Originally posted by 4:24-miler
                      Another runner I really admired was Pat Porter for going from a good, but not elite high school runner, to eight time national x-country champion and two time Olympian. I think Porter is the perfect example of your point of what great coaching and long term planning can accomplish, Brain.

                      Excellent example.

                      Another: Lynn Jennings, a close friend of Porter (and a runner who won more CC titles than he did). She was a very good child prodigy, but did her best running when coached/advised by John Babington.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

                        Originally posted by DaveW
                        Four sub-13 5k in one year after 11 years? 25 seconds faster than PRE? Probably one or two more soon to go under 13:00. Not impossible to see sub 12:50. There was a time two years ago when 13:10 brought awe.

                        Can anyone at the Bible of T&F explain how a country can drop such times in such a short period?
                        My answer would be, why did it take so long to happen?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

                          Originally posted by Brian
                          Salazar, for one example, is a person who had great coaching in the form of Bill Dellinger. As an open athlete in the new money/greater opportunities for competition beyond the every four-years Olympic games, Salazar took his hard-work ethic and inspiration to be the best in the world and--ignoring Dellinger's warnings--ran himself into the ground.
                          We had no one even remotely like AlSal for two decades, early exit or no. I don't think people here are realizing the dearth of runners we had in the mid-90s. If memory serves me, '96 Trials champ Paul McMullen had to go out after the OT and get a sub-3:38.00 just to get to run in the Olympics. We had five guys do that all in one race last Saturday and had 12 guys beat it in 2009.

                          I don't buy that we had good coaching in the 60s, 70s and 80s, bad coaching in the 90s, and have good coaching now. The results were too different and with many of the same top-level coaches. There's something else going on. Besides, ask any of them and they'll readily tell you they're incapable of making chicken salad out of chickens***. If the kids haven't got talent, it doesn't matter what magic the coach has.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Reason for Sub 13:00 5K

                            I say ask someone with opinions about this stuff and who was part of the earlier surge and critical of the following fallow period -- malmo.

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