Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

[ATK]

I think after the recent Rieti marks it has become unclear what makes a tier and which sprinters belong in each. Although it is opinionated to a certain extent, I think most of it is pretty clear cut and based on facts.

I think on time (both fast and relative to the competition in the race) and not medals or championship placings. You could have more/higher medals but if your not faster than the next guy, your just not in his class.

Consistency is the main key to this. You can hit a time but if your unable to back this time up its pretty irrelevant in terms of where you place. Also consistency in terms of who you compete with and beat in your races throughout the season.

And also I believe wind and altitude and all those other adjustments are irrelevant when It comes to this. pretty simple, if runner a runs 9.40 with a 2.0w and runner B goes 9.41 in a 1.0w, who gets the WR.(which is also why consistency is so important)

Here is how I think the current runners should be ranked with 3 tiers.
Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Dix, Blake, Thompson, D.Baliey, Carter*, Patton
Tier 3: R.Baliey, Lamietre, Frater, I.Williams, Rodgers, Martina,(possibly some others)

I put Bolt and Carter with a star because they are both ahead of their class but I don't believe they are in a class of their own(or the next class up for Carter)

I find this pretty interesting and would really like to hear some reasons for why you put someone somewhere and what you define each tier as.

[26mi235]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

And also I believe wind and altitude and all those other adjustments are irrelevant when It comes to this. pretty simple, if runner a runs 9.40 with a 2.0w and runner B goes 9.41 in a 1.0w, who gets the WR.(which is also why consistency is so important)

The 100 WR is 10.49, and that mark is supposed to be better than, say 10.64? Just because it is a WR does not make it worthy of being the best mark. Consider the discus, where quarter winds make a big difference. Is a long throw in a wind-tunnel better than a throw of less distance under normal conditions?

If you cannot bet your life on the true underlying nature of the mark then it is a misleading mark and I do not really care that it is the WR. Are sprint times with winds of 2.00 much better than those with wind of 2.01? The former would get a record, the latter would not but the qualitative difference would be nil.

[7-sided]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

...Here is how I think the current runners should be ranked with 3 tiers.
Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Dix, Blake, Thompson, D.Baliey, Carter*, Patton
Tier 3: R.Baliey, Lamietre, Frater, I.Williams, Rodgers, Martina,(possibly some others)

I put Bolt and Carter with a star because they are both ahead of their class but I don't believe they are in a class of their own(or the next class up for Carter)

I find this pretty interesting and would really like to hear some reasons for why you put someone somewhere and what you define each tier as.

I like your tiers, ATK, and I completely understand your grouping of both Bolt and Carter (though I elevated Carter...and many see Bolt in a class of his own). I see that you also leave Thompson in Tier-2 (I did too, but I don't feel great about it), but you haven't demoted D. Bailey to Tier-3? And, if you haven't demoted D. Bailey to Tier-3, then how do you demote Martina (who I believe SHOULD have been demoted)? Neither one has broken 10 this year. The biggest elephant in this china shop is Patton! He is getting a complete pass for NOT running this year. Is that fair?

[Giant Panda]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Patton also came eighth in the last two major finals, which kind of puts him in Marc Burns territory.

[gh]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Forget Patton's not running this year. He's 31 in December, and has achieved two World Rankings in his entire career: No. 10 in '08 and No. 5 in '09. No OG/WC medals (8th in Beijing and Berlin both).

A world-class sprinter to be sure, but on the rung right below the Big 3?

[Giant Panda]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

There are those guys like Zakari and Ezinwa who historically make finals and don't get much done despite having times from the circuit. But they do get to the finals.

Now maybe Patton is somebody like Ray Stewart who on the right day could have run a PB or grabbed a medal, but unfortunately it never happened.

Yes he made two US teams and has a fast time. But he qualified by 0.01 ahead of Travis Padgett and I don't see his name anywhere in this. It does seem Patton wasn't at full fitness in the end, but that's part of the game when it counts.

[JWiz]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Dix, Blake, Thompson, D.Baliey, Carter*, Patton
Tier 3: R.Baliey, Lamietre, Frater, I.Williams, Rodgers, Martina,(possibly some others

Take Bailey and Patton out of Tier 2. Bailey has fallen off this year and Patton, wtf? Sorry, aint buying the Frenchie hype. He needs more consistency and sub 10s...10.13 for the European Champs, yikes! I'd drop R.Bailey down a tier too. He hadn't run sub 10 before Rieti and we don't know for sure if it was just a Fasuba run. Martina....meh.

Tier 1: The Holy Trinity
Tier 2: Carter, Dix, Blake...and reluctantly Thompson.
Tier 3: Frater, Williams, Rodgers, D.Bailey
Tier 4: Martina, R.Bailey, Frenchie, Kimmons, Chambers, Forsythe, the English sprinters..etc etc.

[26mi235]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

JWiz: I can only quibble around the margins; Are these ranked in order within each Tier? (and Tier 1 would be BGP, of course).

[gh]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Ivory Williams as a 3? Has never world ranked (and won't this year). Best USATF finish ever is a 3rd in a depleted race this year. Getting too much credit for being a top-class indoor performer at 60m? His height (5-8/1.73) suggests a great starter with not enough top-end speed.

[odelltrclan]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Where will Justin Gatlin end up in this mix?

[7-sided]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Dix, Blake, Thompson, D.Baliey, Carter*, Patton
Tier 3: R.Baliey, Lamietre, Frater, I.Williams, Rodgers, Martina,(possibly some others

Take Bailey and Patton out of Tier 2. Bailey has fallen off this year and Patton, wtf? Sorry, aint buying the Frenchie hype. He needs more consistency and sub 10s...10.13 for the European Champs, yikes! I'd drop R.Bailey down a tier too. He hadn't run sub 10 before Rieti and we don't know for sure if it was just a Fasuba run. Martina....meh.

Tier 1: The Holy Trinity
Tier 2: Carter, Dix, Blake...and reluctantly Thompson.
Tier 3: Frater, Williams, Rodgers, D.Bailey
Tier 4: Martina, R.Bailey, Frenchie, Kimmons, Chambers, Forsythe, the English sprinters..etc etc.

JWiz, I have to pull back the curtain...are you mad?!? :lol: Frater, Williams and Rodgers in tier-3, but Lemaitre, and others, in tier-4? First, unless we are going to have 75 tiers for the top 75 sprinters then it is pointless to have a 4th (5th, 6th) tier. I like Frater, but this year? No. Frater, Williams and Rodgers are in the same tier as Lemaitre, especially, if Carter can't jump out of tier-2 to tier-1. You actually rank Lemaitre and "the English sprinters" together? :shock: :roll: "the English sprinters" (minus Dwain) are not worthy of a tier.

Also, some of you (obviously, JWiz, and a few others that won't be named..."shiv, you out there?"), seem to be bothered my Lemaitre's "presence" in the 100m. He's here, he's consistent and he earned it (and he strongly plays down the nonsense hype that may shortcircuit his development). Cut him some slack, the kids the real deal.

[gh]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

[.... "the English sprinters" (minus Dwain) are not worthy of a tier....

tears, on the other hand.... :mrgreen:

[JWiz]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

JWiz, I have to pull back the curtain...are you mad?!? :lol: Frater, Williams and Rodgers in tier-3, but Lemaitre, and others, in tier-4? First, unless we are going to have 75 tiers for the top 75 sprinters then it is pointless to have a 4th (5th, 6th) tier. I like Frater, but this year? No. Frater, Williams and Rodgers are in the same tier as Lemaitre, especially, if Carter can't jump out of tier-2 to tier-1. You actually rank Lemaitre and "the English sprinters" together? :shock: :roll: "the English sprinters" (minus Dwain) are not worthy of a tier.

Also, some of you (obviously, JWiz, and a few others that won't be named..."shiv, you out there?"), seem to be bothered my Lemaitre's "presence" in the 100m. He's here, he's consistent and he earned it (and he strongly plays down the nonsense hype that may shortcircuit his development). Cut him some slack, the kids the real deal.

I'm perfectly sane...atleast I think so.

I agree with gh, Williams probably doesn't belong in the 3. As for Frater and the like, yeah not so much this year but they have been consistent in the past. If we are talking about this year. We may as well eliminate tier 3 altogether. I'm not sure what you're getting at with my supposed problem with Frenchie's "presence" in the 100m. I don't have a problem at all. Discounting Rieti, the guy ran sub 10 once. His winning time for the Euros places him last in the Beijing and Berlin final. Sure, props to the kid...but in the grand scheme of things he's a tadpole. He hasn't earned diddly squat at this point and wouldn't break the heats of a Olympic or WC event.

So, my final ranking (based on this year) would be (in no particular order)

Tier 1: The Holy Trinity
Tier 2: Blake, Dix, Carter
Tier 3: Thompson
Tier 4: Everybody else.



I think the men have a clear pecking order. Let us have some real fun and tier the women. :twisted:

[7-sided]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

I'm perfectly sane...atleast I think so.

I agree with gh, Williams probably doesn't belong in the 3. As for Frater and the like, yeah not so much this year but they have been consistent in the past. If we are talking about this year. We may as well eliminate tier 3 altogether. I'm not sure what you're getting at with my supposed problem with Frenchie's "presence" in the 100m. I don't have a problem at all. Discounting Rieti, the guy ran sub 10 once. His winning time for the Euros places him last in the Beijing and Berlin final. Sure, props to the kid...but in the grand scheme of things he's a tadpole. He hasn't earned diddly squat at this point and wouldn't break the heats of a Olympic or WC event.

So, my final ranking (based on this year) would be (in no particular order)

Tier 1: The Holy Trinity
Tier 2: Blake, Dix, Carter
Tier 3: Thompson
Tier 4: Everybody else.

Ok, then clearly you don't understand what these tiers were supposed to delineate. I can't begin to understand your methodology or if you are even using one! It's like you just chose the names that you recognized or the athletes that you liked (or didn't like in the case of Lemaitre). Tier 3 is sub-10.10 to about 9.9mid/low. For the most part, these sprinters are the same; they will beat each other, but their times will remain within that range. Lemaitre has CONSISTENTLY run sub-10.10 and what he did at Euro's is irrelevant (not unlike N.Carter in Zagreb :roll: ). Add in the reported injury before Barcelona and I hear former Jets coach, Herm Edwards' voice angry at a press conference...

sidebar: As for what I am getting at in the case of Lemaitre ... racism, by you and a few other posters (many black or Jamaican). There I said it! It's like your entire world has been turned upside down by the fact that one non-west african ancestry sprinter has run sub-10; 3 times at that! One guy! He's the European Junior record holder! 10.04 in 2009! A raw 20-year old sprinter has a few of you over-scrutinizing his every race. He has not acted like Shirvo, the italians or any of the other self-promoters who have neared the mark, yet you dismiss his entire season. He beat all of the Europeans all season long, and he bested a lot of non-Europeans, too! It makes me question all of your other analysis

[26mi235]

Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Lemaitre has a couple things going for him in terms of Tiers for next year, which could be above where he is this year.

First and foremost, he is YOUNG and dTime/dAge < 0 to a greater extent than virtually anyone else on these lists.

Second, he has been winning within his context (Euros) and does not seem particularly intimidated (although the number of observations is small). He was one of my quibbles alluded to above, where I would have put him into the group above (3 vs 4 I think).

Third, he runs the 200 and so is less likely than the 100-only guys to lose a little at the end in big races. [I am not sure why I think Carter fades a bit does relative to his equivalent (maybe the Gay standard is too tough, but I think he had better be ahead of Dix through 50 or he will finish behind him), since it seems he does run the 200 at a good level, but people could clearly educate me here.]