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  • #16
    Re: We sprint fans....

    Hines was 2-0 over Nash in '67, Greene was 1-0... Nash actually ran the U.S. nationals that year, finishing 3rd behind Hines and Greene.

    I don't think they met in any other years (which isn't surprising, considering South Africa's rogue status at that point).

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    • #17
      Re: We sprint fans....

      I don't recall a time where where we saw the best sprinters totally ignoring one another like we have in recent years. Is this just me?

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      • #18
        Re: We sprint fans....

        Lewis and Johnson avoided each other until Zürich was able to put together a huge cash package.

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        • #19
          Re: We sprint fans....

          Originally posted by gh
          Lewis and Johnson avoided each other until Zürich was able to put together a huge cash package.
          That one is well known, I'm talking about when compared to what we are currently seeing. I know that it has happened just not to the degree we now see............you disagree?

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          • #20
            Re: We sprint fans....

            Ducking comes into play in any event as soon as one/both of the principals is making enough money elsewhere that he doesn't need to rely on something as mundane as racing to keep home and hearth together.

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            • #21
              Re: We sprint fans....

              NEWSFLASH this is not an amateur sport anymore, get over it. I am reading this thread and it is dominated by an amateur mindset about the sport.

              Ducking is misused. It is born from only respecting a select 2 or 3 while ignoring EVERYONE else. It is also born from the disappointment of the big races on the circuit being sunk by injuries. The athletes are not ducking, they are handling their business, and unfortunately injuries have killed the showdowns. In 2008 it was tyson going down in the 200, that eliminated a number of races between our trials and the Games. last year Brussels was all set for the big three, Bolt called it a season, and that was that. And I have not touched on the diminishing races out there.
              There is also the case of revisionist history happening. The top dogs have averaged 2 or 3 races on the circuit every year and thats a high number. Donovan Bailey used to run all over Europe at small meets to collect his pay checks. Carl once ran 5 races the whole season! I think it was 85. There is also the issue of clustering. In the mid and late 90s we had Frankie, Mo, Donovan, Ato, JD, Bruny, Dennis Mitchell, and the random hot sprinter, all running around 9.90-10.00 every race. Today we have TGay, Bolt, and Asafa a tenth faster than the entire field, so when one of them is missing it looks barren. Until someone beats them it will continue to look this way.

              The rest is just the usual track fan cynicism paraded as intelligence.

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              • #22
                Re: We sprint fans....

                I prefer to focus on the good/fun/exciting aspects of Field & Track.

                There are so many positive issues, why worry about the negative ones that you can't control?

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                • #23
                  Re: We sprint fans....

                  Originally posted by Smoke
                  NEWSFLASH this is not an amateur sport anymore, get over it. I am reading this thread and it is dominated by an amateur mindset about the sport.

                  Ducking is misused. It is born from only respecting a select 2 or 3 while ignoring EVERYONE else. It is also born from the disappointment of the big races on the circuit being sunk by injuries. The athletes are not ducking, they are handling their business, and unfortunately injuries have killed the showdowns. In 2008 it was tyson going down in the 200, that eliminated a number of races between our trials and the Games. last year Brussels was all set for the big three, Bolt called it a season, and that was that. And I have not touched on the diminishing races out there.
                  There is also the case of revisionist history happening. The top dogs have averaged 2 or 3 races on the circuit every year and thats a high number. Donovan Bailey used to run all over Europe at small meets to collect his pay checks. Carl once ran 5 races the whole season! I think it was 85. There is also the issue of clustering. In the mid and late 90s we had Frankie, Mo, Donovan, Ato, JD, Bruny, Dennis Mitchell, and the random hot sprinter, all running around 9.90-10.00 every race. Today we have TGay, Bolt, and Asafa a tenth faster than the entire field, so when one of them is missing it looks barren. Until someone beats them it will continue to look this way.

                  The rest is just the usual track fan cynicism paraded as intelligence.

                  The year is 1996. Donovan Bailey will meet Frankie Fredericks...5 times. He will face Dennis Mitchell...11 times. Those were the top three sprinters in the world. Fredericks met Mitchell...5 times. So lets do the math....Bailey raced the top dawgs other more times in 96 than we see the top three meeting today in a 5 year year period.....you disagree?

                  What nobody ever got injured in 1996? Notice how they managed to make it work in 1996? Then there's Ato Boldon he met with the top three a half dozen times or more. Are we seeing that today? And you think two meeting between the top dawgs is a lot... :roll:

                  In 2006 Asafa Powell faced Tyson Gay...5 times. Do we see that today? There is some ducking going on so don't be so naive.

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                  • #24
                    Re: We sprint fans....

                    Originally posted by Pentathlete 2
                    I prefer to focus on the good/fun/exciting aspects of Field & Track.

                    There are so many positive issues, why worry about the negative ones that you can't control?
                    How can anyone not agree with that? BRAVO!

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                    • #25
                      Re: We sprint fans....

                      Avante do the math, how much were DB, Dennis, FF and Ato making a race in 1996? Let me help you, Bolt gets more than it would cost to have all of them in one race. For decades we as a sport talk about money as if it is not needed nor deserved, rather than find ways to bring more dollars, to the sport to afford races. Is there a ceiling? Yes. But we cannot grow and survive as a professional sport as long as we keep campaigning for the floor.
                      The meets that facilitated those many match ups no longer exist. We would not see those numbers even if the money was right because there's not enough races.
                      The entire topic of ducking is illogical. At least in the sprints it is. Why duck and race at all? None of these guys make more money NOT running. Ducking would imply they skip Monaco and go run at Bratslava the same day. Not skip races altogether and not race. All three are threats to each other on any given Friday, so whats the motivation of ducking? Asafa runs as long as he is healthy, so if Bolt or tyson want to race they are fairly certain to run into him.
                      Now there is an ecnomic debate to be had, but the ducking issue is pure fabrication. I have seen ducking, but like I said, that's a case where athlete A declines a race to run another elsewhere. And even then its more economics than fear. A meet willing to pay the champ his top dollar is not going to be able to afford any of his major opponents.

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                      • #26
                        Re: We sprint fans....

                        Originally posted by Smoke
                        Avante do the math, how much were DB, Dennis, FF and Ato making a race in 1996? Let me help you, Bolt gets more than it would cost to have all of them in one race. For decades we as a sport talk about money as if it is not needed nor deserved, rather than find ways to bring more dollars, to the sport to afford races. Is there a ceiling? Yes. But we cannot grow and survive as a professional sport as long as we keep campaigning for the floor.
                        The meets that facilitated those many match ups no longer exist. We would not see those numbers even if the money was right because there's not enough races.
                        The entire topic of ducking is illogical. At least in the sprints it is. Why duck and race at all? None of these guys make more money NOT running. Ducking would imply they skip Monaco and go run at Bratslava the same day. Not skip races altogether and not race. All three are threats to each other on any given Friday, so whats the motivation of ducking? Asafa runs as long as he is healthy, so if Bolt or tyson want to race they are fairly certain to run into him.
                        Now there is an ecnomic debate to be had, but the ducking issue is pure fabrication. I have seen ducking, but like I said, that's a case where athlete A declines a race to run another elsewhere. And even then its more economics than fear. A meet willing to pay the champ his top dollar is not going to be able to afford any of his major opponents.
                        So if not for the greed these guys could and would meet each other every chance they got, not unlike 96.....gotcha!

                        Sorry Smoke but there is some ducking going on and it's obvious. If you have some reason to protect these guys from that sort of talk that's your thing. I see it and have been seeing it for awhile now. Trust me I'm not the only one singing this song.

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                        • #27
                          Re: We sprint fans....

                          Originally posted by gh
                          Ducking comes into play in any event as soon as one/both of the principals is making enough money elsewhere that he doesn't need to rely on something as mundane as racing to keep home and hearth together.
                          So you agree, ok.

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                          • #28
                            Re: We sprint fans....

                            Originally posted by Vault-emort
                            Originally posted by Avante
                            As far as sprinting goes I can't buy that the top guys weren't competing against each other back in the day. Just who were you talking about?
                            Well I guess I'm not just talking about the two top US male sprinters in 1967/8 as a basis for my argument.

                            But if we are using that era, how many times did South Africa's Paul Nash ever compete against Hines or Smith? Once?

                            How many times did Olympic silver medallist Peter Norman ever run against Smith or Carlos? Twice?

                            Did Wyomia Tyus ever run in Europe?

                            Re:

                            Norman and SMith.

                            Back in the day - my day - Australian athletes had to get clearance from the association to run in Europe. I had to get clearance to come to the US for school. Easy for Ron Clarke, not for others


                            Norman ran against Smith in Australia after Smith was invited to come over here, and he used it as a bit of off season training. He raced against Edie, and a few others of that era.

                            The fact that the two never ran often is due more to that it was an amateur sport, and money was not available to pad loss of income while touring Europe. The seasons were opposite, and you needed to find a job.

                            There was no ducking in those days. In fact most of the top sprinters in Australia ran for one club. EMH.

                            There was just little opportunity to race compared to today. Norman and Smith never ducked anyone. Tough to do 12,000 miles away and 6 months opposite.

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                            • #29
                              Re: We sprint fans....

                              Originally posted by mal
                              There was just little opportunity to race compared to today. Norman and Smith never ducked anyone. Tough to do 12,000 miles away and 6 months opposite.
                              Yep, I never used the word ducking. I was just saying that for years and years and years, for a plethora of reasons, the top ranked athletes in the world may not have competed regularly. And I used the era around 68 as an example as that was the 'good old days' example Avante had used.

                              At least (unless my brain totally failing) you got to run in the US with some other Aussie 400 boys in 75.

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                              • #30
                                Re: We sprint fans....

                                Originally posted by Vault-emort
                                Originally posted by mal
                                There was just little opportunity to race compared to today. Norman and Smith never ducked anyone. Tough to do 12,000 miles away and 6 months opposite.
                                Yep, I never used the word ducking. I was just saying that for years and years and years, for a plethora of reasons, the top ranked athletes in the world may not have competed regularly. And I used the era around 68 as an example as that was the 'good old days' example Avante had used.

                                At least (unless my brain totally failing) you got to run in the US with some other Aussie 400 boys in 75.

                                It was a fun time.

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