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¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

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  • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Which is completely irrelevant as Caster Semenya isn't a man.

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    • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

      Originally posted by Flumpy
      Which is completely irrelevant as Caster Semenya isn't a man.
      Exactly.

      I wish some of these posters would show the same 'enthusiasm' and readiness to criticize when we see doped, intentional cheating athletes return to the sport and deny clean athletes a medal. It seems many would rather back their home cheats and criticize Semenya, which is rather f*cked up, IMO.

      Comment


      • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

        Originally posted by Gabriella
        Originally posted by Flumpy
        Which is completely irrelevant as Caster Semenya isn't a man.
        Exactly.

        I wish some of these posters would show the same 'enthusiasm' and readiness to criticize when we see doped, intentional cheating athletes return to the sport and deny clean athletes a medal. It seems many would rather back their home cheats and criticize Semenya, which is rather f*cked up, IMO.
        This will be my last comment to this absurd comparison.

        No matter how many/much drugs of any type you pump into a woman, she will remain a woman. She'll have two X chromosomes, she'll have a female type planum temporale, female hypothalamus, pituitary and adrenal glands. She will still have ovaries, a uterus, female functional reproductive organs. Oh yes, she will not grow testes either.

        Flumpy's statement that "CS is not a man" is true in a sense of outside superficial appearance and registration. The fact remains that CS has none of the female organs, plenty of male's.
        "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
        by Thomas Henry Huxley

        Comment


        • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

          Originally posted by Gabriella
          Originally posted by Flumpy
          Which is completely irrelevant as Caster Semenya isn't a man.
          Exactly.

          I wish some of these posters would show the same 'enthusiasm' and readiness to criticize when we see doped, intentional cheating athletes return to the sport and deny clean athletes a medal. It seems many would rather back their home cheats and criticize Semenya, which is rather f*cked up, IMO.
          Comparing the Semenya situation with a PED cheat would look more like this-

          Athlete shows up and looks so pumped up on drugs that people's mouths fall open, the PED suspect athlete, wins the Olympics 800m at 19 years old with very little training by 20m. There is an investigation and drug testing done and everyone cant wait for the results. The PED suspect athlete is allowed to return to competition looking exactly the same and no explanation given, leaving people to wonder and speculate.
          phsstt!

          Comment


          • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

            Originally posted by Pego
            Originally posted by Gabriella
            Originally posted by Flumpy
            Which is completely irrelevant as Caster Semenya isn't a man.
            Exactly.

            I wish some of these posters would show the same 'enthusiasm' and readiness to criticize when we see doped, intentional cheating athletes return to the sport and deny clean athletes a medal. It seems many would rather back their home cheats and criticize Semenya, which is rather f*cked up, IMO.
            This will be my last comment to this absurd comparison.

            No matter how many/much drugs of any type you pump into a woman, she will remain a woman. She'll have two X chromosomes, she'll have a female type planum temporale, female hypothalamus, pituitary and adrenal glands. She will still have ovaries, a uterus, female functional reproductive organs. Oh yes, she will not grow testes either.

            Flumpy's statement that "CS is not a man" is true in a sense of outside superficial appearance and registration. The fact remains that CS has none of the female organs, plenty of male's.
            I'm with Pego on this.

            The genuinely relevant fact is that Semenya IS NOT a woman by any meaningful (i.e., biological) definition. That's a very big and, indeed, fatal problem here.

            Comment


            • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

              I just want to point out that none of you have a legal background and so we should take your comments with a pinch of salt.

              Comment


              • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

                Originally posted by kuha
                The genuinely relevant fact is that Semenya IS NOT a woman by any meaningful (i.e., biological) definition.
                Says who? I'm sorry, did you and Pego have access to Semenya's medical records? Were you both involved in the investigation into her biological status? I think not. The medical 'experts' that looked at her case have decided that she IS a woman. If this doesn't fit in with your more narrow view of what a woman is, then maybe it's time to re-visit that view.

                I just do not understand this continued animosity towards her. We have heard there are other women in the sport who have been through a similar medical process of examination and compete, but I don't see the debate about who they are and whether they should be competing; they seem to have been accepted. Why can you not accept the IAAF's stance here too? You may not know who they are, but you do not have the detail of Semenya's case either, so leave the poor woman alone.

                The point about dope cheats and why I mentioned them is because they have intentionally chosen to cheat and gain an unfair advantage. Semenya has not chosen to cheat or gain and unfair advantage. However, these cheats are not debated with such vigor by some posters, yet this innocent person is.

                Comment


                • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

                  Originally posted by Gabriella
                  Says who? I'm sorry, did you and Pego have access to Semenya's medical records? Were you both involved in the investigation into her biological status? I think not.
                  For the millionth time (how many times DO we have to pound this into some posters' heads?), the medical details WERE made public with an unintentional leak. If the details revealed had been counterfeit you can bet your bottom dollar there would have been a lawsuit. Not in the least due to the very legislative nature of the whole affair and the way the IAAF had its arm, or should I say balls, twisted.

                  Comment


                  • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

                    Originally posted by PCSExponent
                    Originally posted by Gabriella
                    Says who? I'm sorry, did you and Pego have access to Semenya's medical records? Were you both involved in the investigation into her biological status? I think not.
                    For the millionth time (how many times DO we have to pound this into some posters' heads?), the medical details WERE made public with an unintentional leak. If the details revealed had been counterfeit you can bet your bottom dollar there would have been a lawsuit. Not in the least due to the very legislative nature of the whole affair and the way the IAAF had its arm, or should I say balls, twisted.
                    South African federation also received a medical report prior to the German evaluation recommending that CS not be entered to represent SA as a woman in international competition. That was ignored.

                    The issue before us is simple. Either we accept biology or act on humanitarian/legal grounds as the IAAF apparently decided to proceed. Most of us like separate men and women athletics. This affair casts serious pall over the entire concept of genders being competitively segregated.
                    "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                    by Thomas Henry Huxley

                    Comment


                    • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

                      Originally posted by PCSExponent
                      the medical details WERE made public with an unintentional leak.
                      Originally posted by Pego
                      South African federation also received a medical report prior to the German evaluation recommending that CS not be entered to represent SA as a woman in international competition. That was ignored.
                      You're both citing the wrong experts. The experts that count are the ones that Semenya's lawyers brought forward.

                      Comment


                      • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

                        AFAWK (and it's all speculation, but educated speculation, i'd say), she's undergone some sort of cross-gender hormone therapy (just as a transgender athlete would do to qualify). is that not enough for you? what more should she do for you to be satisfied? have surgery on tv? wear girly dresses and proclaim how cute the jonas brothers are?

                        whether this is an optimal situation or not is not the point. but measures have been taken. i don't hear you moan and bitch about the pistorius situation. i don't hear any of you speak in the same sort of degrading terms about pistorius.

                        Comment


                        • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

                          Originally posted by uakari
                          AFAWK (and it's all speculation, but educated speculation, i'd say), she's undergone some sort of cross-gender hormone therapy (just as a transgender athlete would do to qualify). is that not enough for you? what more should she do for you to be satisfied? have surgery on tv? wear girly dresses and proclaim how cute the jonas brothers are?

                          whether this is an optimal situation or not is not the point. but measures have been taken. i don't hear you moan and bitch about the pistorius situation. i don't hear any of you speak in the same sort of degrading terms about pistorius.
                          It is, as you say, pure speculation that "measures have been taken." But again--for the millionth time--if that is true, how could the '09 results be allowed to stand? No matter how you cut it, this whole thing stinks.

                          As for Pistorius, I've made my views quite clear on the threads devoted to him. I have no sympathy for his cause, either.

                          Comment


                          • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

                            Simply because some of us don't like Semenya being allowed to compete, doesn't mean we have "something against Semenya". I don't believe a person such as "she" should have been eligible in '09 or now.

                            I also don't believe Pistorius should be permitted to participate. That situation could open up a larger can of worms than the Semenya situation.

                            Every situation does not require "fair".

                            Comment


                            • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

                              Originally posted by Dutra
                              Simply because some of us don't like Semenya being allowed to compete, doesn't mean we have "something against Semenya". I don't believe a person such as "she" should have been eligible in '09 or now.

                              I also don't believe Pistorius should be permitted to participate. That situation could open up a larger can of worms than the Semenya situation.

                              Every situation does not require "fair".
                              I don't necessarily reject your argument, but the quotes around "she" are not needed and appear a bit crass.

                              Comment


                              • Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

                                Originally posted by kuha
                                if that is true, how could the '09 results be allowed to stand
                                This is the part that gets me. You can't have it both ways.

                                Comment

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