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  • kuha
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    That's just nonsense. There is some heated emotion here, on both sides, but to go into "bigotry" territory is to take the discussion completely into the swamp.

    As for the "she"/"he" thing, the truth is that these either/or terms are not really relevant here, given the mixed/in-betweenness that we're talking about. From a social standpoint, "she" is completely appropriate; from a medical/biological standpoint it is not. And that marks the divide here: those attempting to address this from a medical/biological standpoint and the others motivated by social/human rights concerns. It is my position that, in this case, only the former has any genuine meaning. All recourse to the latter is simply an attempt to change the subject.

    But, really, all this has been stated many times. Some read and process these ideas; others ignore them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Flumpy
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by Marlow
    Originally posted by mump boy
    'she' is only used as a pejorative term, out of bigotry and spite.
    Huh? What bigotry? What spite? In THIS discussion?
    Seriously???

    This whole discussion is full of bigotry and spite.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by mump boy
    'she' is only used as a pejorative term, out of bigotry and spite.
    Huh? What bigotry? What spite? In THIS discussion? I fear you see phantoms where none exist here (though I'm sure they do indeed dwell elsewhere).

    Leave a comment:


  • mump boy
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by Dutra
    Originally posted by mump boy
    Originally posted by KevinM
    Originally posted by Dutra
    Simply because some of us don't like Semenya being allowed to compete, doesn't mean we have "something against Semenya". I don't believe a person such as "she" should have been eligible in '09 or now.

    I also don't believe Pistorius should be permitted to participate. That situation could open up a larger can of worms than the Semenya situation.

    Every situation does not require "fair".
    I don't necessarily reject your argument, but the quotes around "she" are not needed and appear a bit crass.
    This ^^

    i completley accept others views even if i don't agree but it is this continuous offensive language that pisses me off
    I neither intended it to be offensive nor really care if your offended. It's my opinion of which you don't really seem all that "accepting" of by your comment.
    it's not an opinion, it's a complete lack of manners

    Leave a comment:


  • mump boy
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by Marlow
    Originally posted by mump boy
    i completley accept others views even if i don't agree but it is this continuous offensive language that pisses me off
    Don't be. I also get both sides:

    She's a she (no quote marks) because she thinks herself to be a she, and her external physiology is female (I wanted to put female in quote marks but immediately thought better of it :wink: )

    She is a 'she', because her male aspects create an unfair competitive advantage. All the poster was doing was doing was emphasizing that aspect of the argument.
    it doesn't need emphasizing there would be no discussion without this aspect, 'she' is only used as a pejorative term, out of bigotry and spite.

    Whatever people think of her competing it is completely disrespectful to refer to her in this way

    Leave a comment:


  • Dutra
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by mump boy
    Originally posted by KevinM
    Originally posted by Dutra
    Simply because some of us don't like Semenya being allowed to compete, doesn't mean we have "something against Semenya". I don't believe a person such as "she" should have been eligible in '09 or now.

    I also don't believe Pistorius should be permitted to participate. That situation could open up a larger can of worms than the Semenya situation.

    Every situation does not require "fair".
    I don't necessarily reject your argument, but the quotes around "she" are not needed and appear a bit crass.
    This ^^

    i completley accept others views even if i don't agree but it is this continuous offensive language that pisses me off
    I neither intended it to be offensive nor really care if your offended. It's my opinion of which you don't really seem all that "accepting" of by your comment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by mump boy
    i completley accept others views even if i don't agree but it is this continuous offensive language that pisses me off
    Don't be. I also get both sides:

    She's a she (no quote marks) because she thinks herself to be a she, and her external physiology is female (I wanted to put female in quote marks but immediately thought better of it :wink: )

    She is a 'she', because her male aspects create an unfair competitive advantage. All the poster was doing was doing was emphasizing that aspect of the argument.

    Leave a comment:


  • mump boy
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by KevinM
    Originally posted by Dutra
    Simply because some of us don't like Semenya being allowed to compete, doesn't mean we have "something against Semenya". I don't believe a person such as "she" should have been eligible in '09 or now.

    I also don't believe Pistorius should be permitted to participate. That situation could open up a larger can of worms than the Semenya situation.

    Every situation does not require "fair".
    I don't necessarily reject your argument, but the quotes around "she" are not needed and appear a bit crass.
    This ^^

    i completley accept others views even if i don't agree but it is this continuous offensive language that pisses me off

    Leave a comment:


  • Daisy
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by uakari
    i just think you'd have a hard time proving in court that that piece if paper is wrong or false.
    The piece of paper was issued in good faith but it was based on external phenotype only. So from an athletics perspective it should have no bearing on the case. It will, of course, but is that fair to the other women?

    Leave a comment:


  • uakari
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    re: sundarajan,

    they took her medal in doha, but i don't think they did the other medals from previous asian champs, which only makes it more bizarre. i think she's still listed in the books for those other medals.

    Leave a comment:


  • uakari
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by PCSExponent
    Originally posted by uakari
    that's too simplistic
    Don't complicate clear-cut, simple issues. CS is physically a man and should not be running with the men. End of.
    silly me!!! the oracle of delphi has spoken! or is it moses coming down the mountain??? the truth has come down from the gods!!!!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • uakari
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by Daisy
    The more complex the better for lawyers.

    Another recent, although unrelated, example: Greek sprinters acquitted on appeal

    Is the truth always the winner in a court of law?
    well, it depends. are you talking about courts in greece or southern california, or real courts of law?

    seriously though, there's a little piece of paper issued by a local gov't agency in so. africa some 20 yrs ago. i just think you'd have a hard time proving in court that that piece if paper is wrong or false. it's not simply a matter of having good lawyers.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by Powell
    Originally posted by uakari
    as for poor santhi, the gossip I read was that there were "extra" external parts. but this is a runner who never ran faster than 2:04 IIRC, why did they treat her so poorly? why the indian federation never stood by her, or the iAAF given her a chance to undergo surgery (if she agreed/wanted to), i never understood.
    Precisely for that reason. Had she been a 1:56 runner, the Indian federation would definitely have stood behind her.
    Powell, for being so informed with facts, you seem to have dropped the ball heavily on this one. Have you considered that Soundarajan was from a poor caste, and this was the underlying political reason the government may not have been visibly behind her? Poor woman-child shames India is what the higher-ups were dealing with. Her local state government of Tamil Nadu did back Soundarajan, however, and awarded her a TV set and a cash prize of a little more than $30 000 as a show of support after she'd been stripped of her Doha medal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Powell
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by uakari
    as for poor santhi, the gossip I read was that there were "extra" external parts. but this is a runner who never ran faster than 2:04 IIRC, why did they treat her so poorly? why the indian federation never stood by her, or the iAAF given her a chance to undergo surgery (if she agreed/wanted to), i never understood.
    Precisely for that reason. Had she been a 1:56 runner, the Indian federation would definitely have stood behind her.

    Leave a comment:


  • PCSExponent
    replied
    Re: ¶2011 WC: w800—Savinova catches Semenya

    Originally posted by uakari
    that's too simplistic
    Don't complicate clear-cut, simple issues. CS is physically a man and should not be running with the men. End of.

    Leave a comment:

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