Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

[Gordon18]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

take Usain back to 1964, have him run on the same track as Hayes, and he still beats Hayes by 3+ meters.

Bolt runs 9.80 in Lane 1 of that Tokyo track on that day with 1964 spikes on? I think not.

Let's not forget that when Bolt was 21, Hayes' age at Tokyo, his PR on Mondo tracks - with modern spikes, with modern training methods and probably with creatine - was 10.03.

9.69... 21

[26mi235]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

But since Bolt received the baton before the 300 meter line, the bad exchange would have affected Blake's split but not his.

Not sure that the baton wasn't across that line before Bolt actually got out. Clearly, the problem was Bolt and not the guy coming in so I take it all out of Bolt. Plus, he was not up to speed at that point and that hurts his time.

Bolt got out well, he just left late. His split isn't taken when he reccieves the baton, it's taken when he crosses the 300 meter line. Conversely, the clock for Blake's split continued to run until Bolt crossed the 300 meter line, despite the fact that he no longer had the baton.

When did the baton hit the 300m line? TO me, it looks like Bolt's time might be as slow as well into the 9s as he is running completely clear with the clock at 28.0 and it looks like Blake's arm is well up into the air at 27.6 -- of course, who knows how well the time on the screen reflects the action...

A slightly different assessment is to look at when he passes the 90m to go line (end of zone), which looks to be at 29.0. He seems unlikely to have run that first 10m in 1.0 seconds, probably more like 1.2. If so, then it was 27.8 to 37.04, which is 9.24 seconds.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

Let's not forget that when Bolt was 21, Hayes' age at Tokyo, his PR on Mondo tracks - with modern spikes, with modern training methods and probably with creatine - was 10.03.

9.69... 21

Okay, you got me on a technicality. He was five days shy of 22 on the day of the Beijing 100 final.

[Gordon18]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

Let's not forget that when Bolt was 21, Hayes' age at Tokyo, his PR on Mondo tracks - with modern spikes, with modern training methods and probably with creatine - was 10.03.

9.69... 21

Okay, you got me on a technicality. He was five days shy of 22 on the day of the Beijing 100 final.

9.85?
9.92?
9.89?
9.84?
9.72?
9.92?
9.76?

[thedodge]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

You do realize that Hayes was no more than a college guy...right? We never saw him run past 21. Do you honestly believe that a 5-11 190 pounder wouldn't be running 9.8ish on these tracks today with all the other advantages these guys have today if he were 25-28??

Tyson Gay was no faster than Bob Hayes at 21 despite all his advantages.

Great points! And let's not forget that when Bolt was 21, his PR was 10.03, barely faster than Hayes, despite all the modern advantages and the fact that he was a part-time track athlete. By the way, we haven't seen Jacoby Ford (10.01) and Trindon Holliday (10.00) run past college either. If we assume that they would have improved post-collegiately like other sprinters do, the U.S. could have defintely used them in Daegu on the 4x100 relay team. Avante, are you finally coming around to my way of thinking? :P

Not saying the 1964 Bob Hyes could hang, I am saying if he were alive today he's right there with them. No he's not beating Bolt but who is?

Agreed. Bolt's PR improvement after the age of 21 (0.45 seconds) is probably a record that will never be broken. But if we give Hayes a modest post-collegiate improvement of 0.15s, that brings us to 9.91. Add Mondo track, modern spikes, modern training methods and creatine and we're talking 9.7.

HAYES RAN 9.91 WIND AIDED IN THE 1964 OLYMPIC SEMI FINALS AND WON BY WHAT 5 METERS GIVE ME A BREAK.

[thedodge]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

The bottom line here is very simple...

Bob Hayes had every disadvantage there is when it comes to sprinting vs these guys today yet here we are debating a 1964 sprinter va these guys today, that alone tells us just how great he really was.

Now lets take Bolt, Powell and gang and stick them back in 1964 or bring Hayes, Smith and gang up to today, now what do we see?

There is a debate because Hayes supposedly ran 8.6 on that anchor leg in 64. I personally don't believe that time is close to accurate and I don't think he would have chance against any of today's top sprinters. And take Usain back to 1964, have him run on the same track as Hayes, and he still beats Hayes by 3+ meters.

Hell!!! Bolt hasn't beat anybody of note by 3+ meters the last 2 plus years and has he even broke 9.80 the last two years. He looks life and death to win most times recently, please tell the children that he runs 9.80 in 1964 in lane 1 not adults.

[thedodge]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

Hey take any anchor leg of Bolt's super impose it with Hayes and he loses every time just ask Carl Lewis.

[fourjz]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

Let's not forget that when Bolt was 21, Hayes' age at Tokyo, his PR on Mondo tracks - with modern spikes, with modern training methods and probably with creatine - was 10.03.

9.69... 21

Okay, you got me on a technicality. He was five days shy of 22 on the day of the Beijing 100 final.

Did'nt Bullet Bob Hayes run that 10 flat on dirt ? I believe so. :wink:

[Giant Panda]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

Bob Hayes won his Olympic 100m gold in world record time by a margin of 0.20 seconds on October 15th 1964 and he turned 22 on December 20th 1964.

Usain Bolt won his Olympic 100m gold in world record time by a margin of 0.20 seconds on August 16th 2008 and he turned 22 on August 21st 1964.

The more significant conversation is what would Bolt's winning margin have been if Tyson Gay had not been injured and Asafa Powell had not choked, and also whether Hayes defeated rivals of superior accomplishment to Richard Thompson and Walter Dix in the shape of the experienced Enrique Figuerola and Harry Jerome.

Hayes was significantly younger than six of the other athletes in his final. Figuerola came fourth at the previous Olympics and Jerome had set world records at 100m and 100y in 1960 and 1961. As a teenager he'd pulled up injured while leading his semi final in Rome where he was the biggest threat to Armin Hary. He'd been timed in 9.9 that year.

Bolt was joined on the rostrum after his final by a pair of NCAA athletes who'd not been favoured to win medals. His wining time was an improvement of 0.03 on his own mark and 0.05 on the mark by Powell the year before.

By contrast although Hayes only officially tied the world record, his auto-time was 0.20 seconds faster than the previous fastest mark by Armin Hary, who's world record 10.0 in Rome was 10.25 electronic. Figuerola and Jerome were clocked in 10.25 and 10.27 in Tokyo. Which is to say Hayes faced rivals running as fast as anyone had ever run before him, whereas Bolt did not.

[bambam]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

1. Indeed the times were good overall. However Hayes had lane 1 in the 100m final which was run after the 20km walk (or 50?) and that lane one was pretty damaged.

In addition to the 20 km walk occurring earlier that day (15 October 1964), the 10K had been run the day before with all that traffic occurring in lane one. It did not rain on 15 October, but it had rained all day on the 14th, during the 10K, so that lane was sloppy mud, and then was chewed up by the runners and then the 20K walkers before Hayes got to it.

I don't think Zelgadiss saw or really knew of Hayes from that era or the relay anchor to understand the myth that has grown up around him. That and the 48-consecutive race winning streak. Bolt's likely the greatest sprinter ever, but before him, it was Hayes, case closed for me. Comparing Gay or Powell to Hayes is simply not reasonable.

In that anchor, Hayes got the baton in 5th place, 3 metres behind France's Jocelyn Delacour, and the US won the race by 0.30 seconds over Poland, with France third. So Hayes made up 5-6 metres on the world's anchor runners (although the anchor field was a bit weak other than Hayes). So we have no precise idea what his time was, but that level of dominance has not been seen until Bolt. Delecour told Hayes' teammate Mel Pender after the race, “All you guys had was Hayes,” and he responded, “He’s all we need, baby!”

[Marlow]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

Bolt's likely the greatest sprinter ever, but before him, it was Hayes, case closed for me.

And me.

[bambam]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

As great as Hayes was, he would not beat Bolt today

And one thinks he could have. Bolt is the GOAT. But Hayes was, before him.

Agree absolutely. And as to TrainerPhil, all you can really compare is the level of dominance within an athlete's own era. Nobody has ever dominated the 100m like Hayes and Bolt. Simply trying to compare marks doesn't work - you trying to tell me Gerd Kanter is a greater discus thrower than Al Oerter, because he's thrown further?

[Avante]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

Bob Hayes ran 5.9, 9.3, 9.2. 9.1 (numerous times) 10.1 20.5 and that Olympic 10.06...all WR's. Story goes a couple times he given an inferior time because the officials weren't buying it. All that as a footballer who ran track on dirt surfaces all before 22 years of age. At 5-11 190 pounds he was as physcially imposing as anyone out here today. All he didn't have was modern tracks, a pro career up into his late 20's, modern training...etc. The Bullet...14 or was it 15 WR's. Here we are still talking about a guy who was out of sprintdom before 22. That's how amazing he was.

I see it like this...(a lot has to do with if all things were equal)

Greatest 100m

1.Usain Bolt...Jamaica
2.Bob Hayes...Florida A&M/USA
3.Mo Greene...KCCC/USA
4.Carl Lewis...Houston/USA
5.Tyson Gay...Arkansas/USA
6.Asafa Powell...sooooo many fast times he has to be here...Jamaica
7.Donovan Bailey...Canada
8.Linford Christie...Great Britian
9.Bobby Morrow...Abilene Christian/USA
10.Valery Borzov...USSR

So we have 5 American born, 4 born in Jamaica, and Valery Borzov I do see him beating Hart/Robinson. Now if Larry Black had been in lane 4/5 in that 200m....hmmm?

In his sprint career Hayes did lose some. Give me the names of the 9 who turned the trick.

[fourjz]

Re: Was Bolt's relay leg finally faster than Hayes 8.6?

You know,there are still some decent dirt tracks here in California,and around the U.S.Maybe if some Track Promoter can have all the fastest Sprinters run a 100M race on dirt to see what would happen.Just a thought. :lol: :wink: