Marathon Records (women)

[26mi235]

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"IAAF Congress passed a motion to change the standard by which women athletes achieve world record performances in road races. By the new criterion, only times achieved in all?women competitions would be acknowledged for world record purposes, and performances achieved in mixed conditions would now be referred to only as “world best”."

For purists, this is something that seems important, but to me it is like the US high school federation that recognizes its restricted set of records in high school-only competitions. Interesting, but it does not tell us what we usually want to know about the World Record in the event.

In this case, it has the additional distinction that the current records are 'expunged' and that the records were made under conditions that were in place at the time. To be consistent, they should take away Bubka's PV records, which of course is not going to happen any time soon.

What should happen is that there should not be active pacing of the leaders by a man, especially throughout the race. However, the men's records have been made with a phalanx of pacers which is essentially a distinction without enough difference.

[Marlow]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Simply wrong-headed.

A. The majority of marathons are mixed races and therefore 'tainted' (??!!).
B. The history of the sport is that of mixed races.
C. Having two WRs (OK, one WR and one WB), a distinction without a difference) is unnecessarily confusing.

I equate this to having separate 1600 and Mile records at a HS, when clearly the Mile record is superior. Yes, there may (or sometimes NOT) be an advantage to be paced by men, but aren't men's records also set with pacing?

S-T-O-O-P-I-D :roll:

[SQUACKEE]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Paula's 2:15 should not count, she was clearly dragged to that time by the men. :P

[26mi235]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Paula's 2:15 should not count, she was clearly dragged to that time by the men. :P

Yes, wasn't she being paced to the line by the fastest Brit that year -- opps, she WAS the fastest Brit that year.

[added material that I posted on LetsRun just now.]

toro wrote:

The men pacing Paula all the way to the end are not in competition AGAINST PAULA.

The men pacing Geb are not there to help him in the last quarter of the race. Because they can't keep up.

The best woman in the world can easily find suitable men to pace them every step of the way.

The best man in the world cannot.

That's the logic behind the rules.

I truly don't care. If you ran the distance in a certain time, that's pretty good.
Plenty of National Records have been set where someone followed a better athlete all the way to the end.
Of course World Records deserve more scrutiny.

Yes, there is logic, it is not a one-sided case either way. However, in Geb's 12:39 WR where he beat Komon, how much of the race did Geb lead and did he get more assistance than Paula did in her 2:15?

Also, you are erasing a ratified record. To be consistent, the IAAF should remove Bubka's PV records because they were set with more generous equipment (longer pegs, bar ends that would stay on if you hit the bar and it rolled at all, Volzing allowed). No way that they are going to remove those records, so they cannot be fully consistent.

Also, given the nature of the races and fast times and top racers, it will look like the National High School Fed 'records' which are generally inferior to the 'real' high school records. Which ones do we pay more attention to? In this case we would be paying more attention to the top marks, not those made in women-only races. Would the US record revert to Joannie's LA OG Marathon?

All you really have to do is to prohibit male pacers. Those who happen to run along with the women for bits and pieces are certainly less helpful than the hired pacers, especially of the Berlin 6-man arrowhead provided to Geb. Of course, this application of a rule would also rule out the 2:15.

Also note that almost all of the records prior to Joannie's Olympic Marathon would be removed from WR status because they did not provide opportunities to race. Those women do not deserve to have their status degraded. They all were playing with the same rules, it is not like some got aiding wind over the 2.0 limit while others did not. Note, that the informal route does work because we virtually never get altitude-assisted records in the sprints because people do not go get altitude-assisted records like they could.

[SQUACKEE]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

In Geb's world marathon record, he is aided by men pacesetters. In Paula's world marathon record, the thought is, that she was aided by men pacesetters. See the differance? :shock: :lol:

[TN1965]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Organizers of top tier marathons could easily set a separate start time for elite women (as they already do in some of them) to make sure that the record will be ratified.

It might be unfair to retroactively expunge existing records, since neither the runner nor the organizer was in a position to know that the record would eventually become ineligible.

But was it unfair for the "old" WR holder (for that matter any record holder) when the javelin was redesigned and all the old records were wiped out?

[Fielding Melish]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Actually maybe 3 categories are now needed.

What is hypothetically Mary Keitany had run Boston last April and pushed by the wind crossed the finish in 2:17:40?

world record - 2:17:42 Radcliffe London 2005
world best, women only race - 2:17:40 Keitany Boston
world best, loop course - 2:15:25, Radcliffe London 2003

One distinction about pacing of a women's world record by men is that unlike a men's WR, the pacers can literally go right alongside up to the finish line. Arguably the toughest stretch in a marathon could be the last 10- 15 percent fighting physical and mental fatigue. Not possible for men pacing men to be there while for women this has been commonplace (Radcliffe, Benoit, Loroupe, etc.)

[Conor Dary]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Why take it to the extreme. Solo, no crowds, no splits, or mile markers, or aid stations. Purity of essense.

[Daisy]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Here is a progression cobbled together from wikipedia. Which of these are disqualified under the new rules. Also are Boston times all banned?

• 3:40:22 Violet Piercy UK Oct 3, 1926 London
  3:37:07 Merry Lepper USA Dec 16, 1963 Culver City, USA
  3:27:45 Dale Greig UK May 23, 1964 Ryde
  3:19:33 Mildred Sampson New Zealand July 21, 1964 Auckland, New Zealand
  3:15:23 Maureen Wilton Canada May 6, 1967 Toronto, Canada
  3:07:27.2 Anni Pede-Erdkamp West Germany Sept 16, 1967 Waldniel, West Germany
  3:02:53 Caroline Walker USA Feb 28, 1970 Seaside, OR
  3:01:42 Elizabeth Bonner USA May 9, 1971 Philadelphia, USA
  2:55:22 Elizabeth Bonner USA Sept 19, 1971 NYC Marathon
  2:49:40 Cheryl Bridges USA Dec 5, 1971 Culver City, USA
  2:46:36 Michiko Gorman USA Dec 2, 1973 Culver City, USA
  2:46:24 Chantal Langlacé France Oct 27, 1974 Neuf-Brisach, France
  2:43:54.5 Jacqueline Hansen USA Dec 1, 1974 Culver City, USA
  2:42:24 Liane Winter West Germany April 21, 1975 Boston Marathon
  2:40:15.8 Christa Vahlensieck West Germany May 3, 1975 Dülmen
  2:38:19 Jacqueline Hansen USA Oct 12, 1975 Eugene, USA
  2:35:15.4 Chantal Langlacé France May 1, 1977 Oiartzun, Spain
  2:34:47.5 Christa Vahlensieck West Germany September 10, 1977 Berlin Marathon
  2:32:29.8 Grete Waitz Norway Oct 22, 1978 NYC Marathon
  2:27:32.6 Grete Waitz Norway Oct 21, 1979 NYC Marathon
  2:25:41.3 Grete Waitz Norway Oct 26, 1980 NYC Marathon
  2:25:28.7 Grete Waitz Norway April 17, 1983 London Marathon
  2:22:43 Joan Benoit USA April 18, 1983 Boston Marathon
  2:21:06 Ingrid Kristiansen Norway April 21, 1985 London Marathon
  2:20:47 Tegla Loroupe Kenya April 19, 1998 Rotterdam Marathon
  2:20:43 Tegla Loroupe Kenya Sept 26, 1999 Berlin Marathon
  2:19:46 Naoko Takahashi Japan Sept 30, 2001 Berlin Marathon
  2:18:47 Catherine Ndereba Kenya Oct 7, 2001 Chicago Marathon
  2:17:18 Paula Radcliffe UK Oct 13, 2002 Chicago Marathon
  2:15:25 Paula Radcliffe UK April 13, 2003 London Marathon

[26mi235]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Here is a progression cobbled together from wikipedia. Which of these are disqualified under the new rules. Also are Boston times all banned?

• 3:40:22 Violet Piercy UK Oct 3, 1926 London
  3:37:07 Merry Lepper USA Dec 16, 1963 Culver City, USA
  3:27:45 Dale Greig UK May 23, 1964 Ryde
  3:19:33 Mildred Sampson New Zealand July 21, 1964 Auckland, New Zealand
  3:15:23 Maureen Wilton Canada May 6, 1967 Toronto, Canada
  3:07:27.2 Anni Pede-Erdkamp West Germany Sept 16, 1967 Waldniel, West Germany
  3:02:53 Caroline Walker USA Feb 28, 1970 Seaside, OR
  *3:01:42 Elizabeth Bonner USA May 9, 1971 Philadelphia, USA
  *2:55:22 Elizabeth Bonner USA Sept 19, 1971 NYC Marathon
  *2:49:40 Cheryl Bridges USA Dec 5, 1971 Culver City, USA
  *2:46:36 Michiko Gorman USA Dec 2, 1973 Culver City, USA
  2:46:24 Chantal Langlacé France Oct 27, 1974 Neuf-Brisach, France
  *2:43:54.5 Jacqueline Hansen USA Dec 1, 1974 Culver City, USA
  *2:42:24 Liane Winter West Germany April 21, 1975 Boston Marathon
  2:40:15.8 Christa Vahlensieck West Germany May 3, 1975 Dülmen
  2:38:19 Jacqueline Hansen USA Oct 12, 1975 Eugene, USA
  2:35:15.4 Chantal Langlacé France May 1, 1977 Oiartzun, Spain
  2:34:47.5 Christa Vahlensieck West Germany September 10, 1977 Berlin Marathon
  2:32:29.8 Grete Waitz Norway Oct 22, 1978 NYC Marathon
  2:27:32.6 Grete Waitz Norway Oct 21, 1979 NYC Marathon
  2:25:41.3 Grete Waitz Norway Oct 26, 1980 NYC Marathon
  2:25:28.7 Grete Waitz Norway April 17, 1983 London Marathon
  2:22:43 Joan Benoit USA April 18, 1983 Boston Marathon
  2:24:26 Ingrid Kristiansen Norway May 13, 1984 London Marathon
  2:21:06 Ingrid Kristiansen Norway April 21, 1985 London Marathon
  2:20:47 Tegla Loroupe Kenya April 19, 1998 Rotterdam Marathon
  2:20:43 Tegla Loroupe Kenya Sept 26, 1999 Berlin Marathon
  2:19:46 Naoko Takahashi Japan Sept 30, 2001 Berlin Marathon
  2:18:47 Catherine Ndereba Kenya Oct 7, 2001 Chicago Marathon
  2:17:18 Paula Radcliffe UK Oct 13, 2002 Chicago Marathon
  2:15:25 Paula Radcliffe UK April 13, 2003 London Marathon

I just check some there in the early middle, a number were set at Culver City -- In fact I was running along with them thinking that the woman's WR is about 2:46 so that could not be going that fast, so I would run with them. At 5 miles, they WERE going that fast and I dropped my pace considerably (it was my first road race and really first race in 8 years) so I did not know pace.

[kevinsdad]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

don't know if it's common knowledge here or not, but Shalane Flanagan's mom recorded one of those world bests listed above.

2:49:40 Cheryl Bridges USA Dec 5, 1971 Culver City, USA

[Jon]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Absolutely ridiculous. Here are my views...
http://www.athleticsweekly.com/blog/whe ... ld-record/

[SQUACKEE]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

One distinction about pacing of a women's world record by men is that unlike a men's WR, the pacers can literally go right alongside up to the finish line. Arguably the toughest stretch in a marathon could be the last 10- 15 percent fighting physical and mental fatigue. Not possible for men pacing men to be there while for women this has been commonplace (Radcliffe, Benoit, Loroupe, etc.)

In Geb's world record, he tucked in behind a wall of pacesetters and had company well into the race. In Paula's world record, she ran much of it side by side. Who had a bigger advantage?

Also, when Paula says she could have run the 2:15 solo, who could doubt her? Iv'e seen her run! Maybe I'm smitten? ops:

[PCSExponent]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Pointless. The record is what people know it to be. Who will be celebrating a 2:17:41? NO ONE.

[kuha]

Re: Marathon Records (women)

Absolutely ridiculous. Here are my views...
http://www.athleticsweekly.com/blog/whe ... ld-record/

Totally agree. What a ridiculous, unnecessary, and utterly counterproductive decision by the IAAF. Complete stupidity.