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  • #16
    Re: Olympic Trials 1500

    >C'mon, Malmo, don't look for a conspiracy theory where there isn't
    >one. I'll gladly debate and defend my article. Fire away.

    Easy there buddy. I thought the article was fine, and, as we've become accustomed to on the internet, not what it was said to be. I'm still not sure why you interviewed Brooks Johnson? That seemed rather odd to me.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Olympic Trials 1500

      >(on tape). He talks about how most of the Americans try to save themselves for
      >the future, trying to build up to being good, not to burn out, to be good at 25
      >or later. Then they end up mediocre. He was right. That holds for more than the
      >middle distances.

      Two Tone, that has been going on for years, not limited to milers but to most runners in the US. I'm not sure how or why it got a foothold but it did. The popular thing for at least a decade was for runners to be training, not for anything specific, just for some point down the road. One problem: when "down the road" came they didn't race and they started training for yet another unnamed point down the road.

      It seemed that the purpose of training was to explore many ways to "avoid injury" and "burnout"
      It used to be that athletes trained to race, not trained to train. I think, I hope, that is changing.

      In most of the events now you see a lot of really aggressive running. They seem to be a little timid in the marathon still, but if you look at the results in the longer road races you can see packs of runners laying it on the line. I think thats a good omen.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Olympic Trials 1500

        Two Tone, that has been going on for years, not
        >limited to milers but to most runners in the US. I'm not sure how or why it got
        >a foothold but it did. The popular thing for at least a decade was for runners
        >to be training, not for anything specific, just for some point down the road.
        >One problem: when "down the road" came they didn't race and they started
        >training for yet another unnamed point down the road.

        It seemed that the
        >purpose of training was to explore many ways to "avoid injury" and
        >"burnout" >>

        I wholeheartedly agree. Look at some of the reaction when an athlete does something a little unusual such as Ritz did recently with his back to backs. 'Oohhhhhh. He might get hurt.'

        Think these people ever heard of Tommy Fulton?
        I have a T&FN which has Shorter winning 3 10km XC races in a week. If someone tried that today the coach would be accused of abuse.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Olympic Trials 1500

          >Think these people ever heard of Tommy
          >Fulton?
          I have a T&FN which has Shorter winning 3 10km XC races in a week. If
          >someone tried that today the coach would be accused of abuse.

          If you try to have kids run doubles they'll be accused of abuse. Football players do doubles every August, while the XC runners are worried about their heartrate.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Olympic Trials 1500

            Yeah, Malmo and Dutra are on the money. I remember Tommy Fulton, Shorter being a racing rat, and all the rest. I seem to remember a guy named Bekele running the long and short races on successive days at the World XC meet. For all the complaints about Ryun being over-trained, he doubled and tripled all the time while training through the week, and still ran some pretty good races. Scott may have run too many races during his college years, but he also trained like an SOB to be the best he could be at the moment. The best he could "RIGHT NOW". Liquori also. Heck, I remember Ovett running XC meets and races from the 800 to the two mile/3k all season long. The Brits have really slid, never mind the rest of Europe. But we went into some of that earlier.

            The "Runner's World" mentality tanked the sport in some ways as well.

            Ritz is certainly putting on a show. His potential seems to be bearing out as fact, instead of wishful thinking.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Olympic Trials 1500

              I wonder what Snells thinks about distance running in his home nation. It is a lot worse than American distance running.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Olympic Trials 1500

                He said the same thing about NZ in an interview a few years ago. You can probably find it on google.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Olympic Trials 1500

                  I think Dan interviewed Johnson because he has a HUGE say in how USATF development funds are spent as director of USATF's High Performance Program and in the USATF coaching education curriculum. That makes his views reasonable fodder for discussion. I think Johnson's done good work with the relay program, but that his methods in the middle distances work with only a small percentage of athletes (see Jeff Atkinson, Patti Sue Plumer). That said, my personal take is that there are many paths to success. All involve a lot of hard work and intelligent rest; the athlete has to find the formula that works for him or her.

                  e.g., Scott and Spivey had very different programs, both had careers that any current U.S. miler should envy. Make sense, malmo?

                  >Easy there buddy. I thought
                  >the article was fine, and, as we've become accustomed to on the internet, not
                  >what it was said to be. I'm still not sure why you interviewed Brooks Johnson?
                  >That seemed rather odd to me.



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                  • #24
                    Re: Olympic Trials 1500

                    >I think Dan interviewed Johnson because he has a HUGE say in how USATF
                    >development funds are spent as director of USATF's High Performance Program and
                    >in the USATF coaching education curriculum. That makes his views reasonable
                    >fodder for discussion. I think Johnson's done good work with the relay program,
                    >but that his methods in the middle distances work with only a small percentage
                    >of athletes (see Jeff Atkinson, Patti Sue Plumer). That said, my personal take
                    >is that there are many paths to success. All involve a lot of hard work and
                    >intelligent rest; the athlete has to find the formula that works for him or
                    >her.

                    e.g., Scott and Spivey had very different programs, both had careers
                    >that any current U.S. miler should envy. Make sense, malmo?

                    Anyone who has ever spent just five minutes with Atkinson could only come up with one conclusion - Jeff would make it in spite of any program put to him. He was a scrappy kid who simply willed himself to be better. If he wanted to be a ping pong player he'd have been a damn good one.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Olympic Trials 1500

                      What is Atkinson doing today?

                      He was a ray of hope until Falcon and Holman arrived on the scene.

                      You know, US milers weren't that bad back then.

                      Irrelevant Though of the Day:
                      I remember the story of Roger Bannister telling Joe Falcon to give up drinking Coke. Falcon took that advice and posted a 3:49 mile. Bannister thought drinking Coke was a mistake for distance runners. I don't know what research this was based on.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Olympic Trials 1500

                        >What is Atkinson doing today?

                        Last I heard he was a high-priced personal trainer SLASH raconteur in Redondo Beach. A pretty good gig, I might add.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Olympic Trials 1500

                          >e.g., Scott and Spivey had very different programs, both had careers >that any current U.S. miler should envy. Make sense, malmo?

                          Bad example, Sieg. Actually Scott and Spivey were more similar than not. But I get what you were trying to say, and it's the oldest and most hackneyed argument in the book. Saying that there is a full spectrum of methods that work is not the same as choosing an anomaly as an example and promoting those ideas as a valid alternative to the proven methods that work for 95 percent of the athletes.

                          Basically Dan's article tacitly said as much. The glaring contrasts in the piece were the opinions of those with the credentials vs the one without.

                          The most rational plan is to mimic what works for the best, try those methods, review and adjust as needed. Each athlete will eventually find his own training niche and personal sweet spot that way.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Olympic Trials 1500

                            >Oletimer - I'm not sure what you're asking. Do you want my personal opinion
                            >about US milers? If so, lemme know and I'll spew forth probably more than you
                            >want to read.
                            Spew forth all that you want. Most people don't like being criticised as part of a "batch" or "crop". Do they all have something in common that you'd like to change? If these guys are lucky to stay healthy long enough to figure out what works for them, they will be good. Some have gone through 4 coaches in 4 years. Most have adjusted their training when they figure out how the body reacts. Some are pushing the miles up as their form allows. Stember, Lunn,Robison, and Berryhill train differently and none like whatever Brooks did and you know it. I don't know what Webb and Gruber are doing.
                            What are you going to say that is universal to these guys.
                            As far as comparing these guys to the old time runners, I don't. Without going into detail, I have run against and beaten many of those to whom posters compare these kids. I can't imagine the current runners doing some of the stupid workouts of yesteryear. One might survive, but I don't know which one.
                            You are looking at the best that this nation can produce and they are universal in working as hard as possible.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Olympic Trials 1500

                              <I have run against and beaten many of those to whom you compare these kids>

                              Would you reveal your true identity? Malmo and I guess some others know you are, some of us don't :-)
                              "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                              by Thomas Henry Huxley

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Olympic Trials 1500

                                ><I have run against and beaten many of those to whom you compare these
                                >kids>

                                Would you reveal your true identity? Malmo and I guess some others
                                >know you are, some of us don't :-)
                                I really do not want to as it would likely change the issue and I don't want to change it.

                                Comment

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