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  • #16
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    That's all very interesting, but if entries closed tomorrow, and everyone that you listed had entered, Dix wouldn't make the cut. He would not be in the Trials. There are more than 30 ahead of him with faster qualifying times.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

      There aren't more than 30 that have faster qualifying times since 7/1/2003. You are automatically in if you have run a 20.20 or better since 1/1/2003, but you get seeded after everyone else no matter what your time is if you don't have a 20.65 or better since 7/1/2003.

      If you haven't run a 20.65 or better since 7/1/2003 you don't have a primary seeding time, and you will be seeded behind every person who has at least a provisional (10.65) since 7/1/2003.

      There are several people who have times faster than Dix that aren't currently going to qualify for the trials because their times came before 7/1/2003.

      Notice where Maurice Greene is? That is because he's automatically qualified, but he doesn't have a time since that date, while 27 people have run 10.65 or better since then.

      If he doesn't run a 200 prior to 7/1 this year, Greene will have the 30th seed at best, because you can be sure that the list of seed times is going to grow.

      I didn't make the rules, and you don't understand them. I make no excuses for that.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

        Sorry, ycn, but I think you are wrong. As Garry said:
        >>"The list of Qs is made from marks starting from 1/03. They then cut that list to X (for the 200, 30).<<

        Dix does not make the cut. He's not in the top 30 marks starting from 1/1/03, so he's not a Q, which means that when he made his best time and when the Q's made theirs is entirely irrelevant. Just because he had a faster time post 7/1/03 than some of those who qualified in the first half of '03 does not put him ahead of them on the Q list. It's the Q list that determines who gets into the meet. Then the seed list determines how they are seeded in the first round.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

          From the USATF site:

          ----------------------
          Seeding for the first round of competition is based on marks achieved between 7/1/03 - 7/1/04, which will be ranked before any performances made prior to 7/1/03, even if they do not meet the qualifying standard (Rule 75). Marks made prior to 7/1/03 may qualify an individual for the competition, but will not be used for seeding purposes when a 7/1/03 - 7/1/04 mark exists.
          -----------------------

          That's it. There's the rule. You may be automatically qualified prior to 7/1/2003 but not prior to 1/1/2003.

          Outdoor marks are included from 1/1/2003. Indoor marks are included from the most recent season only.

          It doesn't matter if you ran a 19.31 between 1/1/2003 and 6/30/2003, that mark will include you automatically, but you will be seeded behind everyone who has a 20.65 or better since 7/1/2003, if you haven't run at least a provisional qualifying time since that date.

          That means a 20.42 before 7/1/2003 will not be seeded until after those persons who attained 20.65 after 7/1/2003 have been seeded.

          Everyone below the line on my list above is (a) not automatically qualified, and (b) will not be seeded until everyone with a 20.65 or better on or after 7/1/2003 has been seeded. That is why Maurice Greene is currently at 29 in my chart. He hasn't run 20.65 or better since 7/1/2003.

          A 20.40 in the first six months of 2003 is worthless if the automatic qualifiers and the number of people who have run 20.65 or better since 7/1/2003 meets or exceeds 30 entrants.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

            gh and tandfman have already tried to explain that you are wrong, but I will try once more.


            >From the USATF site:

            ----------------------
            Seeding for the first round of
            >competition is based on marks achieved between 7/1/03 - 7/1/04, which will be
            >ranked before any performances made prior to 7/1/03, even if they do not meet
            >the qualifying standard (Rule 75). Marks made prior to 7/1/03 may qualify an
            >individual for the competition, but will not be used for seeding purposes when
            >a 7/1/03 - 7/1/04 mark exists.
            -----------------------

            That's it. There's
            >the rule. You may be automatically qualified prior to 7/1/2003 but not prior to
            >1/1/2003.

            Yes, that is correct.

            Outdoor marks are included from 1/1/2003. Indoor marks are
            >included from the most recent season only.

            Yes, that is correct.

            It doesn't matter if you ran a
            >19.31 between 1/1/2003 and 6/30/2003, that mark will include you automatically,
            >but you will be seeded behind everyone who has a 20.65 or better since
            >7/1/2003, if you haven't run at least a provisional qualifying time since that
            >date.

            Yes, that is correct.

            That means a 20.42 before 7/1/2003 will not be seeded until after
            >those persons who attained 20.65 after 7/1/2003 have been seeded.

            Yes, that is correct, as long as you understand that seeding is only done AFTER the qualifiers for the meet have been determined. The only purpose of seeding is to try to create first round heats of equal quality.

            Everyone
            >below the line on my list above is (a) not automatically qualified, and (b)
            >will not be seeded until everyone with a 20.65 or better on or after 7/1/2003
            >has been seeded. That is why Maurice Greene is currently at 29 in my chart. He
            >hasn't run 20.65 or better since 7/1/2003.

            Yes, that is correct.

            A 20.40 in the first six months
            >of 2003 is worthless if the automatic qualifiers and the number of people who
            >have run 20.65 or better since 7/1/2003 meets or exceeds 30 entrants.

            This is completely wrong. You're getting hung up on the 7/1/03 date. The qualifying process is as follows: All qualifiers are listed in order of time run since 1/1/03. The 30 fastest qualify for the Trials (assuming that 30 or fewer hit the A standard). Only at that point is seeding done. Any of the runners with sub-20.61's, even if run between 1/1/03 and 7/1/03, will qualify for the Trials ahead of Walter Dix.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

              The only automatic qualifiers are the people who got 20.20 or better. Everyone else is provisional, and subject to the 7/1/2003 rule.

              It's pretty simple, if you can't run a 10.65 or better since 1/1/2003, you are not considered, because you didn't meet the B standard.

              (There is an exception to that rule, and it only applied to filling the field if fewer than 30 achieve the provisional qualifying time.)

              If you have 20.20 or better since 1/1/2003, you are in, or if you medaled in the most recent Olympics, or in the IAAF world championships from 2000-2004, or if you won the event at the last USATF championship meet.

              Only those times at or below 20.65 are used for primary seeding, and only if those times were from the period 7/1/2003 to 7/1/2004. If your time is outside that frame, you are seeded below everyone who has at least a provisional qualifying time from that period.

              If you have a time of 20.20 or better between 1/1/2003 and 6/30/2003, but have not since recorded even a provisional qualifying time, you will be seeded behind all those that have, but you will be in the trials.

              The field will be 30 and all ties, unless more than 30 achieve the A standard, in which case only those who have met the A standard will fill the field.

              If you have a 20.20 since 1/1/2003 you are guaranteed entry, but not a seed. Only those performances since 7/1/2003 are seeded in order of time, and for any other automatic qualifiers, they enter the field replacing those at the bottom of the provisional list in the field of 30 and ties. If one person is automatically qualified from a mark outside the 7/1/2003-6/30/2004 time frame, and fewer than 30 have automatically qualified, then the 30th seed is replaced by the one automatic qualifier who did not post at least a provisional time from 7/1/2003-7/1/2004. If it is two automatic entries, then two are replaced, and so on.

              You are not guaranteed a place in the field by having one of the top 30 qualifying marks. You are ONLY guaranteed a place in the field if your qualifying mark is 20.20 or better, and it was achieved on or after 1/1/2003, or you meet the exception criteria of the rules regarding medalist placement in the Olympics or IAAF world meets, or have won the most recent USATF outdoor national championship in the event.

              Any mark from 20.21 to 20.65 makes you eligible, but provisionally. As previously stated and by rule, those who have achieved qualifying marks from 7/1/2003-7/1/2004 are seed first, and all others are considered in order of their marks, except that those who have qualified automatically on the basis of a 20.20 or better from 1/1/2003-6/30/2003 will be in the field, and will replace those at the bottom of the seedings with provisional qualifying times at the bottom of the seedings. Those who have achieved provisional marks in the period 1/1/2003-6/30/2003 cannot replace those who have achieved provisional or automatic marks from 7/1/2003-7/1/2004, except for the automatic qualifiers as stated above.

              This is not rocket science.

              If you have attained an automatic qualifying mark outside the time frame, and 30 or more have achieved the automatic mark inside the time frame, then those who achieved the automatic time outside the time frame will be seeded behind all those who achieved the time within the time frame, regardless of qualifying time.

              If somebody wants to get someone from USATF to dispute this, then I'm willing to listen. But from the way the rules are written, the idea that just because someone achieved a top 30 time between 1/1/2003 and 6/30/2003, that somehow that athlete is automatically in the field is a ludicrous and inaccurate interpretation of the rules.

              The only people guaranteed inclusion in the field are those who meet the automatic qualification criteria, and in the event that fewer than 30 qualify automatically, those at the top of the list of those who didn't, beginning with those who achieved B times between 7/1/2003 and 7/1/2004.

              This isn't like ranking grandmasters in chess. Old news is no news. If you want to be in the field, then you have to have shown your stuff in the last year.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

                No, it's not rocket science, just basic reading comprehension. Try reading the rules again (particularly the passage you chose to quote above where it specifically discusses seeding FOR THE FIRST ROUND).

                The qualifying procedure is the same as it has been for countless years. The qualifying period for the Trials always starts on January 1 of the year prior to the meet, and remins open until just before the Trials. The new twist in 2004 is that to seed more equitably ONCE THE FIELDS HAVE BEEN DETERMINED, marks achieved in the first six months of the qualifying period are not used FOR SEEDING PURPOSES.

                On the USATF website (see link), seeding guideline #1 reads "The mark used for qualifying and the mark used for first round seeding might not be the same."

                http://www.usatf.org/events/2004/Olympi ... dSizes.asp

                Please feel free to check with USATF yourself if you are still confused.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

                  Sure, jb. You are the genius here. I'll just step aside. I can't stand in the shadow of such a giant of knowledge.

                  Why don't you explain "the philosophy of athletics selection processes" while you are at it?

                  After all, superiority is schmeared all over your smug face.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

                    The seeding rule only comes into effect once the fields have been selected based on the 30 fastest times starting 1/1/03, not 7/1/03. Once the 30 fastest are selected, all times made after 7/1/03 are used for seeding. These statements have already been made trying to explain the rule. So, if a runner ran 20.40 on 2/1/03 and was the 30th fastest runner at the end of the qualifying period and another runner ran 20.60 on 7/2/03 but was only the 31st fastest runner on the list, he will not get in, only the 20.40 runner will get in.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

                      Thank you, abinferno, for adding your comments to gh's, mine and jb's. I think your explanation is probably he most lucid of all. Whether the truth will finally sink in to ycn is another matter. He just doesn't seem to get it--or want to get it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

                        Does anybody know an answer to my question of why 30 instead of 32? Is it some sort of "cushion"?
                        "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                        by Thomas Henry Huxley

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

                          Because weird decisions are the trademark of the the Chaplin Empire.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

                            I don't really know the answer, but I'm guessing that they are planning on not using the inside two lanes for the first round or two. So the first round would have five heats of six. Hence 30 as the targeted number of qualifiers.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

                              The '00 first round was truly bizarre. 7 heats, qualify 1+9, with the following distribution of the 34 runners:

                              I--5
                              II--4
                              III--4
                              IV--5
                              V--5
                              VI--6
                              VII--5

                              My GUESS would be that they originally had each heat drawn for 5 or 6, but they ended up a lot of scratches at the last minute.

                              (there were 26 women, qualifying 2+6; four heats of 5 and one of 6.)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

                                I sure wish the committee would just come out and say they are going to take the top 30 and ties from 1/1/2003 through 7/1/2004 in the 200m, if that is truly what they are going to do.

                                Why wouldn't they just say that if that is their intention?

                                There isn't anything I can find anywhere that says a top 30 time outside of 7/1/2003-7/1/2004 will get you a spot in the trials.

                                Comment

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