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  • ycn
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    I tend to agree, tandfman.

    It would have been clearer if they had explicitly said that best marks from all entries from 1/1/2003 through 7/1/2004 would be used to determine the field. Because the seeding times may be different from qualification times, it tends to make one think that more recent results could make or break an entry.

    Were split periods used to adjust seeding times in 2000? No confusion at all would exist if the dates used for seeding matched the dates used for qualification.

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  • tandfman
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    >>the guidelines state that the top marks from 1/1/2003-7/1/2004 will be used to complete the field. Since it is unlikely that enough "A" marks will be attained to fill the field, then provisional qualifiers will fill the rest of the slots.<<

    I'll try once again. The above paragraph, which you quoted, says it all. The top marks from the entire qualifying period are used to complete the field.


    >>Nothing says that seeding will not be used to determine who is in and out of the field. It is not explicitly stated either way.<<

    Nothing except the ordinary meaning of the word "seeding" and normal seeding procedures. You seed only the athletes who are in the meet. You don't determine who is in the meet by the seeding rules--you determine who is in the meet by the qualifying rules. Once you've determined who is in the meet, you then and only then apply the seeding rules. This is all widely understood.

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  • ycn
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    Here is my point, and please try to be understanding here, we are reading the same thing.

    From http://www.usatf.org/events/2004/Olympi ... ndards.asp

    US Trials Procedure

    "A" and "B" Standards

    "A" - athletes who attain the "A" standard will automatically be included in the event. *
    "B" - athletes who attain the "B" standard will be included in the event only if additional competitors are needed to fill the stated field size (i.e., not enough athletes have attained the "A" standard). *

    * - subject to the Qualifying Guidelines, entry process, and declaration process. If the "B" standard is used, only the number of athletes needed to fill the stated field size will be included in the event. These athletes must declare, and they will be invited for inclusion only after the close of declarations.

    Field sizes are the approximate number of desired participants in each event (not the minimum). See the field sizes page for a list of the progression of field sizes for each event.


    And from http://www.usatf.org/events/2004/Olympi ... dSizes.asp

    Seeding Guidelines

    1. The mark used for qualifying and the mark used for first round seeding might not be the same.

    2. Each qualified entrant in each event must submit a best mark, if available, from the period 7/1/03 - 7/1/04, whether it meets the qualifying standard or not.

    3. Seeding for the first round of competition is based on marks achieved between 7/1/03 - 7/1/04, which will be ranked before any performances made prior to 7/1/03, even if they do not meet the qualifying standard (Rule 75). Marks made prior to 7/1/03 may qualify an individual for the competition, but will not be used for seeding purposes when a 7/1/03 - 7/1/04 mark exists.


    So here is my point.

    Only those who have achieved "A" performances and those who qualify under the special qualifying regulations are guaranteed a spot in the trials. For seeding purposes only those best marks from 7/1/2003-7/1/2004 will be used, unless only a mark which at least meets the "B" standard is available before those dates, but not before 1/1/2003.

    The guidelines state that the mark used for qualifying might not be the same as the mark used for seeding, but nowhere do the guidelines state that the top marks from 1/1/2003-7/1/2004 will be used to complete the field. Since it is unlikely that enough "A" marks will be attained to fill the field, then provisional qualifiers will fill the rest of the slots.

    Nothing says that the decision on who participates will be solely based on best times from 1/1/2003 through 7/1/2004. That period is only the time frame for achieving an automatic or provisional mark.

    Nothing says that seeding will not be used to determine who is in and out of the field. It is not explicitly stated either way.

    Since "B" times are not guaranteed participation, I see no reason whatsoever to assume that the seeding order will not be used to find the desired cutoff point among those who have not achieved "A" marks.

    But bear in mind that I haven't looked into this issue before now, so it may be an unwritten rule somewhere about who gets picked.

    Let's say someone achieved a 20.40 time in April of 2003, but since last July has not had a mark better that 21.10. If the committee is seeding on the basis of the later marks, why would they use the ealier mark when it had not been validated by more recent results? Why pick someone for the field based upon their best mark, then seed the field based upon a smaller set of more recent marks? What would be the point of that?

    Leave a comment:


  • jb
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    http://www.usatf.org/events/2004/Olympi ... ndards.asp

    Qualifying Guidelines

    1. All qualifying performances for running events must be made on a standard outdoor track or during the 2004 indoor season on an indoor track in the same event; qualifying performances for walking events must be made on a USATF-certified road course, standard outdoor track, or an international road course certified by the appropriate authority.

    2. Qualifying marks must be made and verifiable in one of the following:
    a. USATF- or IAAF-sanctioned events,
    b. collegiate meets where events prescribe to or exceed USATF competition rules, or
    c. high school meets, except duals and triangulars.

    3. All qualifying performances are subject to verification.

    4. Fully automatic timing (F.A.T.) is the only method of timing acceptable for qualifying marks for events equal to or shorter than 400 meters.

    5. A manual time may only be used for qualifying for events of 800 meters and longer. No timing allowance factor for qualifying will be made for hand times. Hand times will be adjusted using Rule 76 for the purposes of seeding.

    6. Wind-assisted performances will not be accepted. There is no adjustment for altitude.

    7. An appeal to use a mile qualifying mark for the 1500m will be accepted only if a) no 1500m qualifying mark exists, b) the mile mark was made during the 2004 season, and c) the mile mark is equivalent to the 1500m "A" standard, 3:54.40 for men and 4:28.20 for women.

    8. All qualifying marks must be attained between January 1, 2003 and July 1, 2004.


    The above qualifying guidelines clearly state that the qualifying period is 1/1/03-7/1/04. The 7/1/03 date is not mentioned, as it has no bearing on qualifying and is only used for seeding purposes once the fields have been set.

    Also note that the field size of 30 in the 200 is only an approximate number and not a minimum.

    Leave a comment:


  • ycn
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    I sure wish the committee would just come out and say they are going to take the top 30 and ties from 1/1/2003 through 7/1/2004 in the 200m, if that is truly what they are going to do.

    Why wouldn't they just say that if that is their intention?

    There isn't anything I can find anywhere that says a top 30 time outside of 7/1/2003-7/1/2004 will get you a spot in the trials.

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    The '00 first round was truly bizarre. 7 heats, qualify 1+9, with the following distribution of the 34 runners:

    I--5
    II--4
    III--4
    IV--5
    V--5
    VI--6
    VII--5

    My GUESS would be that they originally had each heat drawn for 5 or 6, but they ended up a lot of scratches at the last minute.

    (there were 26 women, qualifying 2+6; four heats of 5 and one of 6.)

    Leave a comment:


  • tandfman
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    I don't really know the answer, but I'm guessing that they are planning on not using the inside two lanes for the first round or two. So the first round would have five heats of six. Hence 30 as the targeted number of qualifiers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Husky Dude
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    Because weird decisions are the trademark of the the Chaplin Empire.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pego
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    Does anybody know an answer to my question of why 30 instead of 32? Is it some sort of "cushion"?

    Leave a comment:


  • tandfman
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    Thank you, abinferno, for adding your comments to gh's, mine and jb's. I think your explanation is probably he most lucid of all. Whether the truth will finally sink in to ycn is another matter. He just doesn't seem to get it--or want to get it.

    Leave a comment:


  • abinferno
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    The seeding rule only comes into effect once the fields have been selected based on the 30 fastest times starting 1/1/03, not 7/1/03. Once the 30 fastest are selected, all times made after 7/1/03 are used for seeding. These statements have already been made trying to explain the rule. So, if a runner ran 20.40 on 2/1/03 and was the 30th fastest runner at the end of the qualifying period and another runner ran 20.60 on 7/2/03 but was only the 31st fastest runner on the list, he will not get in, only the 20.40 runner will get in.

    Leave a comment:


  • ycn
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    Sure, jb. You are the genius here. I'll just step aside. I can't stand in the shadow of such a giant of knowledge.

    Why don't you explain "the philosophy of athletics selection processes" while you are at it?

    After all, superiority is schmeared all over your smug face.

    Leave a comment:


  • jb
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    No, it's not rocket science, just basic reading comprehension. Try reading the rules again (particularly the passage you chose to quote above where it specifically discusses seeding FOR THE FIRST ROUND).

    The qualifying procedure is the same as it has been for countless years. The qualifying period for the Trials always starts on January 1 of the year prior to the meet, and remins open until just before the Trials. The new twist in 2004 is that to seed more equitably ONCE THE FIELDS HAVE BEEN DETERMINED, marks achieved in the first six months of the qualifying period are not used FOR SEEDING PURPOSES.

    On the USATF website (see link), seeding guideline #1 reads "The mark used for qualifying and the mark used for first round seeding might not be the same."

    http://www.usatf.org/events/2004/Olympi ... dSizes.asp

    Please feel free to check with USATF yourself if you are still confused.

    Leave a comment:


  • ycn
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    The only automatic qualifiers are the people who got 20.20 or better. Everyone else is provisional, and subject to the 7/1/2003 rule.

    It's pretty simple, if you can't run a 10.65 or better since 1/1/2003, you are not considered, because you didn't meet the B standard.

    (There is an exception to that rule, and it only applied to filling the field if fewer than 30 achieve the provisional qualifying time.)

    If you have 20.20 or better since 1/1/2003, you are in, or if you medaled in the most recent Olympics, or in the IAAF world championships from 2000-2004, or if you won the event at the last USATF championship meet.

    Only those times at or below 20.65 are used for primary seeding, and only if those times were from the period 7/1/2003 to 7/1/2004. If your time is outside that frame, you are seeded below everyone who has at least a provisional qualifying time from that period.

    If you have a time of 20.20 or better between 1/1/2003 and 6/30/2003, but have not since recorded even a provisional qualifying time, you will be seeded behind all those that have, but you will be in the trials.

    The field will be 30 and all ties, unless more than 30 achieve the A standard, in which case only those who have met the A standard will fill the field.

    If you have a 20.20 since 1/1/2003 you are guaranteed entry, but not a seed. Only those performances since 7/1/2003 are seeded in order of time, and for any other automatic qualifiers, they enter the field replacing those at the bottom of the provisional list in the field of 30 and ties. If one person is automatically qualified from a mark outside the 7/1/2003-6/30/2004 time frame, and fewer than 30 have automatically qualified, then the 30th seed is replaced by the one automatic qualifier who did not post at least a provisional time from 7/1/2003-7/1/2004. If it is two automatic entries, then two are replaced, and so on.

    You are not guaranteed a place in the field by having one of the top 30 qualifying marks. You are ONLY guaranteed a place in the field if your qualifying mark is 20.20 or better, and it was achieved on or after 1/1/2003, or you meet the exception criteria of the rules regarding medalist placement in the Olympics or IAAF world meets, or have won the most recent USATF outdoor national championship in the event.

    Any mark from 20.21 to 20.65 makes you eligible, but provisionally. As previously stated and by rule, those who have achieved qualifying marks from 7/1/2003-7/1/2004 are seed first, and all others are considered in order of their marks, except that those who have qualified automatically on the basis of a 20.20 or better from 1/1/2003-6/30/2003 will be in the field, and will replace those at the bottom of the seedings with provisional qualifying times at the bottom of the seedings. Those who have achieved provisional marks in the period 1/1/2003-6/30/2003 cannot replace those who have achieved provisional or automatic marks from 7/1/2003-7/1/2004, except for the automatic qualifiers as stated above.

    This is not rocket science.

    If you have attained an automatic qualifying mark outside the time frame, and 30 or more have achieved the automatic mark inside the time frame, then those who achieved the automatic time outside the time frame will be seeded behind all those who achieved the time within the time frame, regardless of qualifying time.

    If somebody wants to get someone from USATF to dispute this, then I'm willing to listen. But from the way the rules are written, the idea that just because someone achieved a top 30 time between 1/1/2003 and 6/30/2003, that somehow that athlete is automatically in the field is a ludicrous and inaccurate interpretation of the rules.

    The only people guaranteed inclusion in the field are those who meet the automatic qualification criteria, and in the event that fewer than 30 qualify automatically, those at the top of the list of those who didn't, beginning with those who achieved B times between 7/1/2003 and 7/1/2004.

    This isn't like ranking grandmasters in chess. Old news is no news. If you want to be in the field, then you have to have shown your stuff in the last year.

    Leave a comment:


  • jb
    replied
    Re: Walter Dix enters U.S. Olympic trials

    gh and tandfman have already tried to explain that you are wrong, but I will try once more.


    >From the USATF site:

    ----------------------
    Seeding for the first round of
    >competition is based on marks achieved between 7/1/03 - 7/1/04, which will be
    >ranked before any performances made prior to 7/1/03, even if they do not meet
    >the qualifying standard (Rule 75). Marks made prior to 7/1/03 may qualify an
    >individual for the competition, but will not be used for seeding purposes when
    >a 7/1/03 - 7/1/04 mark exists.
    -----------------------

    That's it. There's
    >the rule. You may be automatically qualified prior to 7/1/2003 but not prior to
    >1/1/2003.

    Yes, that is correct.

    Outdoor marks are included from 1/1/2003. Indoor marks are
    >included from the most recent season only.

    Yes, that is correct.

    It doesn't matter if you ran a
    >19.31 between 1/1/2003 and 6/30/2003, that mark will include you automatically,
    >but you will be seeded behind everyone who has a 20.65 or better since
    >7/1/2003, if you haven't run at least a provisional qualifying time since that
    >date.

    Yes, that is correct.

    That means a 20.42 before 7/1/2003 will not be seeded until after
    >those persons who attained 20.65 after 7/1/2003 have been seeded.

    Yes, that is correct, as long as you understand that seeding is only done AFTER the qualifiers for the meet have been determined. The only purpose of seeding is to try to create first round heats of equal quality.

    Everyone
    >below the line on my list above is (a) not automatically qualified, and (b)
    >will not be seeded until everyone with a 20.65 or better on or after 7/1/2003
    >has been seeded. That is why Maurice Greene is currently at 29 in my chart. He
    >hasn't run 20.65 or better since 7/1/2003.

    Yes, that is correct.

    A 20.40 in the first six months
    >of 2003 is worthless if the automatic qualifiers and the number of people who
    >have run 20.65 or better since 7/1/2003 meets or exceeds 30 entrants.

    This is completely wrong. You're getting hung up on the 7/1/03 date. The qualifying process is as follows: All qualifiers are listed in order of time run since 1/1/03. The 30 fastest qualify for the Trials (assuming that 30 or fewer hit the A standard). Only at that point is seeding done. Any of the runners with sub-20.61's, even if run between 1/1/03 and 7/1/03, will qualify for the Trials ahead of Walter Dix.

    Leave a comment:

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