Sprint Speed in the 400m

[Jacksf]

What do you think is the minimum 200m sprint speed to be successful in the 400m?
For men and women.
By successful, I mean top 50 in the US or the world?

[proofs in the pudd'in]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

21.5-22.0 sounds about right + a 24-25 last 200 = 45.5 - 46.5. I would say that's about top 50.

[ATK]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

I don't think you can really base 400m success off of 200m times.
Many great 200 runners wouldn't factor in the 400, and vice versa.

[gh]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

i think the question is a germane one, even if the answer is next to impossible. Obviously the 200 speed of a Michael Johnson is a quantum amount (maybe two quanta!) more than an Alberto Juantorena, yet each ascended to the top in the event. But Johnson could run 10.08 at the far end of the scale and Juanto could run 1:43 at the other. So speed and strength are both factors that come into play in the 400. If you're as strong as Juanto then you can be as "slow" as he was. Unfortunately, I have no idea what his best 200 was, or if he even recorded a time in a meet. From what I recall of him, I'd be surprised if he ever broke 21.

[Marlow]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

What do you think is the minimum 200m sprint speed to be successful in the 400m? For men and women. By successful, I mean top 50 in the US or the world?

50th time for men was around 45.50. A very common split difference is +2.0, which equals splits of

21.75/23.75

In order to go through 200 'comfortably' at 21.75, you 'd need to be at a high 20/low 21 guy for a single 200, with very good speed endurance.

For women we're talking around 51.80 for 50th place, so a +2 split would be

24.9/26.9

so she would need to be a high 23/low 24 200 runner.

Your mileage may vary . . .

Wariner seems to be a 20.60 guy and PRed at 43.45, but I think he's an outlier in the 'need-speed' sweepstakes, i.e., he's 'slow' for such a great 400 PR. His splits were 20.92/22.53, which means he was AMAZINGLY close to being all-out in the first 200, so IT CAN BE DONE (not be blazingly fast in a solo 200) but there aren't many like him.

[ATK]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

Wariner seems to be a 20.60 guy and PRed at 43.45, but I think he's an outlier in the 'need-speed' sweepstakes, i.e., he's 'slow' for such a great 400 PR. His splits were 20.92/22.53, which means he was AMAZINGLY close to being all-out in the first 200, so IT CAN BE DONE (not be blazingly fast in a solo 200) but there aren't many like him.

Warriner seems more like a 20.3 guy in his prime years
20.19 in 2006
20.35 in 2007
20.37 in 2008
20.30 in 2009

But besides MJ, it seems like the top 400 guys (sub 44) never really ran 200's. Is it more of a modern idea that 200's will help 400m performance, or are results for these guys just not available?

So is there really an accurate measurement of what a sub 44 guy should be running in the 200?
Although I would agree with you that Wariner is probably slow for his 400 PR seeing as how many 44s 400 runners have 200 times around his.
Or are those athletes just slow for their 200 PR's?

[Marlow]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

So is there really an accurate measurement of what a sub 44 guy should be running in the 200?

In a word: no.
In more words, you'd have to be near-world-class in the 200, to be world-class in the 400 . . . UNLESS . . . like Juantorena, you're coming at it from the 'wrong' way, the 800. Then you need to be at or near world class in the 800.
There is no right way to be an elite 400er, but clearly you have to be highly gifted and a very hard worker, cuz ya can't fake a hot 400.

[26mi235]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

Marlow's comment raises the question of 'splitting' the question.

If you were an 200/400 type, what would your 200 mark need to be?
If you were an 800/400 type, what would your 800 mark need to be?

As gh said, it is not clear that the 800 variants have much in the way of truly competitive 200s, so even if they have them, they might not be representative of what they might have done in their prime. Not surprisingly for the 200-types, it is even more unlikely that you will have a competitive 800 to use to judge that side.

If, on the other hand you are a Laura Roesler type, ... well, never mind that breed is too rare that covers such a wide range. [Although it does raise in my mind the question: does someone with an extraordinary range give up a bit of excellence that you might otherwise expect them to have in the middle. There are some distance runners that were to argue to the contrary: Geb, with a 3:31 indoor 1500 and several WRs at the marathon end, was also WR-holder in between, while Morceli (? blanking on name) was great from 800 to 10,000 (and Webb fits that pattern also).

[gibson]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

i think the question is a germane one, even if the answer is next to impossible. Obviously the 200 speed of a Michael Johnson is a quantum amount (maybe two quanta!) more than an Alberto Juantorena, yet each ascended to the top in the event. But Johnson could run 10.08 at the far end of the scale and Juanto could run 1:43 at the other. So speed and strength are both factors that come into play in the 400. If you're as strong as Juanto then you can be as "slow" as he was. Unfortunately, I have no idea what his best 200 was, or if he even recorded a time in a meet. From what I recall of him, I'd be surprised if he ever broke 21.

I think it is impossible to run close to 44 flat without being able at least potentially run the 200m in under 21 seconds.

i recall seeing juanterena going 20 6 - 20.8 somewhere but i can't back it up thru googling.
martyn rooney seems like he's at the end of the spectrum = "slow" 200m, but he's broken 21.
probably even rooney is capable of 20.6, that is probably the cut off for a medal contender.

check it.
http://www.all-athletics.com/node/37080

[jjimbojames]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

martyn rooney seems like he's at the end of the spectrum = "slow" 200m, but he's broken 21.
probably even rooney is capable of 20.6, that is probably the cut off for a medal contender.

check it.
http://www.all-athletics.com/node/37080

And to pour fuel on the LR fire from where this discussion started, Rooney ran cross country and 800s as a junior...

[preston]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

I think it is impossible to run close to 44 flat without being able at least potentially run the 200m in under 21 seconds.

I don't. Ian Morris of Trinidad is listed at 21.36 and he probably wasn't much faster but he did run 44.21. That's significant because it's not only faster than Alberto Juantorena, but Morris ran the 800 at the 1987 Worlds in Indianapolis.

That said, if we change the definition of successful to what would it take to make a global final teh numbers might change. I think the only person(s) I can think of who didn't break 23 seconds for 200m were Jearl Miles and Deedee Trotter, but there could be others. When we take the last 5 worlds and the last 5 olympics we see that the last qualifier to the w400m ran: 50.40-'92, 50.75-'96, 51.21-'00, 51.06-'03, 50.63-'04,50.73-'05, 50.31-'07, 50.63-'08, 50.35-'09, 50.66-'11. And, glancing at the names they all had sub-23 second speed; however, if we use a Monica Hargrove who ran 50.39 in 2009 we see that she has only run 23.39. Now, before anyone gets too excited about her 2:07.07 six years ago, remember: most top 400 women could break 2:10 if they wanted to.

I think Marlow is dead on, but I KNOW we have women running sub-51 off barely sub-24 speed, so the 23.75 (for 51.80) he quoted is a about right, imo.

[gm]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

Ian Morris was a sub-21 guy, several times, for ACU. He had a windy 20.46 in 1986.

[26mi235]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

Preston (and others, but Preston made the comment about the 2:10, a comment I have seen before, but i do not recall seeing a similar comment about the men (e.g., breaking 2:00)):

It is my impression that a higher proportion of women 400 runners do a few 800s than for the male 400 runners; is this impression correct? Is there a higher proportion of women being 400/800 types than for men? I would have guess yes, but most women now seem like 400/200 types.

[preston]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

Ian Morris was a sub-21 guy, several times, for ACU. He had a windy 20.46 in 1986.

Then Gibson is probably right because I had thought about this previously (Morris stuck out and I didn't know his PB, thank you) and figured there were only a handful that hadn't broken 21. Mark Everett stuck out; he's close I'm sure, but I can't say with certainty that he couldn't. I have to think he could now; 21+ may be cutting it too close even though it puts them in the ballpark.

It is my impression that a higher proportion of women 400 runners do a few 800s than for the male 400 runners; is this impression correct? Is there a higher proportion of women being 400/800 types than for men? I would have guess yes, but most women now seem like 400/200 types.

I would say so too.

[starboyunlimited]

Re: Sprint Speed in the 400m

Just a question for those with more knowledge of the event. How would would 400m champ Kirani James fair in the 800m? Considering his physique and stride. Could some one answer this question. What sort of times would he drop in this event if he contested it?