Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

Collapse

Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

    Originally posted by KevinM
    I think running message boards need their own version of Godwin's Law to handle situations when Prefontaine's name is trotted out to stand in virtuous contrast to the athletes in a race like this one.

    I don't recall who here proposed that the US contingent would have been well served to take the pace, but that doesn't seem to be the wisest suggested move given the superior SBs and PBs of the other contenders.
    It was me who suggested that strategy. The Americans all finished off of the podium with a time that is far inferior to their best times so their strategy is demonstrably flawed. How much worse would it have been to team up for a much faster race? All of the Americans have run world class 1500s and sub 13:00 5ks

    Comment


    • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

      Originally posted by KevinM
      Originally posted by DrJay
      Hey, I didn't use just Pre's name. Here's a few more: Bayi, Chapa, Rono, and some high school runners I've watched. Often out front, making it a hard race for all.
      Save Bayi in Christchurch, when did any of those guys do it in a major international final? I don't know that they didn't, but they're all before my time so I may just not know. To be honest, what folks really seem to want is someone willing to be a sacrificial lamb. For every Rudisha there are way more Montanos and Grays.
      Not all of those guys ran in a major international final, and some, like Rose in the 10K in the '83 WC and '84 OG, weren't going to be in medal contention. I listed them because their racing style tended to be go out hard and run from the front, and they often did that at the championship levels at which they did compete well, Rono, Chapa, Salazar, Rose in various NCAA meets, Rose in at least one of the World XC Championships, Bayi in virtually every race he ran, including the 1980 OG 3000 steeple, where he came silver.

      Comment


      • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

        Originally posted by KevinM
        Originally posted by DrJay
        Hey, I didn't use just Pre's name. Here's a few more: Bayi, Chapa, Rono, and some high school runners I've watched. Often out front, making it a hard race for all.
        Save Bayi in Christchurch, when did any of those guys do it in a major international final? I don't know that they didn't, but they're all before my time so I may just not know. To be honest, what folks really seem to want is someone willing to be a sacrificial lamb. For every Rudisha there are way more Montanos and Grays.
        But in Gray's case, it was his racing style, and he had a legitimate shot at gold.

        Comment


        • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

          It is axiomatic that the athlete that leads early and the majority of the race gets beaten at the end. At this level the odds are that the early leader will not be on the podium. Can you imagine the pre-race meetings between athlete and coach? They talk about all the different ways that the race can go and the best strategies...and no coach tells their athlete, "Go hard from the gun and make them all hurt."

          All of the first seven or eight athlete in this year's 5k can run a 53 last lap, even off of a 13min pace. The odds are better to duke it out the last lap than to CERTAINLY go down in flames to the kickers after leading a lot of the race. Yes, there are exceptions, and they are just that...exceptions.

          John Ngugi in the '08 5k is a perfect example. He made it look easy, so why aren't all of the Kenyans running that way? Because he was unique. Filbert Bayi won one big race that way, and then he finished second to Walker and Jipcho every time after that because they knew how he would run and they prepared and out-kicked him.

          Team running is a great idea, someone simply needs to volunteer to finish second. How do you go to a gunfight and not save one last bullet when you are supposed to empty your gun on behalf of your team?

          The objective is to WIN, and no one at this level is trying to do anything but that the best way they know how. And the best way is NOT to try to run everyone into the ground unless you are vastly superior to the field. Sorry, unless you THINK you are vastly superior, because you never know for sure whether there is a 19yr old Ethiopian coming up that you've never heard of that can hang with you and blow your doors off. Just ask Mo about Daegu.

          Comment


          • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

            Originally posted by Gebfan2
            Here are the 1k splits:
            1k Koech 2:55.40
            2k Lomong 5:56.70
            3k Alamirew 8:42.95
            4k Gebremeskel 11:16.47
            5k Farah 13:41.66

            That's under 5:00 for the last 2k. What isn't amazing about that?
            Bekele ran the last 2k of Beijing final even faster, while leading the whole race in the last 3K, and still finished under 13. (And he closed in 53 with 3 sec margin.) With a 8:43 3K split, it takes a faster closing speed to be amazing.

            Comment


            • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

              Originally posted by Dave
              The three Americans could have done this so at least one of them would have ended up with a medal. They could have shared the lead with a 13:00-13:15 pace until the last 800-1200 and then let it all out. Worst case scenario would have been what they ended up with. Best case, at least one of them would have been on the stand.
              The Americans had no incentive to do this, since Lagat is one of the best finishers in the race (and probably all time), and Rupp was recovering from his 10K race. So they both preferred a slow pace.

              Kenyans and Ethiopians should have had all the incentives to employ team tactics, and actually that was the Ethiopians plan, according to Gebremeskel's post race interview. But it didn't work for whatever reason. I think one problem is that all those top runners who make the championship finals are so used to be paced by others in DL meets, they are not used to setting the pace on their own.

              Comment


              • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                Originally posted by TN1965

                Kenyans and Ethiopians should have had all the incentives to employ team tactics, and actually that was the Ethiopians plan, according to Gebremeskel's post race interview. But it didn't work for whatever reason. I think one problem is that all those top runners who make the championship finals are so used to be paced by others in DL meets, they are not used to setting the pace on their own.
                This is at least part of the issue. Most of the examples of winning from the front come from days prior to the pacemaker at least to the extent we see it today. None of these guys has a "style" of Dave Bedford, Bayi, even Foster's mid race surge. They are all much more used to a get on the guy in front of you's back and ride around the track.

                Comment


                • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                  And one more comment on the race itself.

                  Lagat has always tried to accelerate around the final turn, and it probably became too predictable. Iguider probably anticipated that move when he moved to outside. Last year he was blocked by Imane Merga (although Iguider's move did not look as malicious as Merga's). I know the same move worked for Manzano in 1500m, and apparently that's what Lagat had advised him to do. But Manzano was not a marked man like Lagat was.

                  4th was a very disappointing result, no matter how gracious he was after the race.

                  Comment


                  • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                    Originally posted by Dave
                    Originally posted by KevinM
                    I think running message boards need their own version of Godwin's Law to handle situations when Prefontaine's name is trotted out to stand in virtuous contrast to the athletes in a race like this one.

                    I don't recall who here proposed that the US contingent would have been well served to take the pace, but that doesn't seem to be the wisest suggested move given the superior SBs and PBs of the other contenders.
                    It was me who suggested that strategy. The Americans all finished off of the podium with a time that is far inferior to their best times so their strategy is demonstrably flawed. How much worse would it have been to team up for a much faster race? All of the Americans have run world class 1500s and sub 13:00 5ks
                    I think your logic is flawed, here. Rupp was clearly tired from the 10K, and did not make the top five in the heat. Lomong is a 1500 guy moving up, so it made sense for him to prefer a fast finish. Same, really for Lagat. The fact that they ran much slower than their best times is irrelevant, it seems to me. Rupp was clearly not able to run his best time in this final, Lomong's best time pales in comparison to 2/3 of the field (at least), and Lagat gold medals were both in slow races.

                    If any set of countrymen might have done better by team running, they would be the Kenyans and Ethiopians; between them they had five runners with sub-12:50 credentials. But I don't think there was any way to beat Mo Farah yesterday. He was in the "catbird seat", able to win fast or slow, long kick or short kick. And one of the Ethiopians and one of the Kenyans got a medal, so would those guys have profited from team running? Probably not.

                    Cheers,
                    Alan Shank

                    Comment


                    • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                      I think a big reason why we haven't seen "team running" in distance races for the USA....is simply because the USA has rarely, if ever, HAD 3 guys (or gals) in a Championship final before in 5K, 10K, or SC races.
                      Thus, they've had few, if any, chances to practice "team strategy".
                      Finally, IF they were doing some sort of "team strategy" in the 5K, it didn't work!!

                      Now, if they instead had moved to the front....all three of them......and THEN worked together to share the lead, box others in, etc.....it might have garnered one or more of them a medal.
                      The Kenyans and Ethiopians have done it, so why not the USA??

                      We had the team.......we just didn't have the SCHEME!!! :lol:

                      Comment


                      • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                        Originally posted by Dutra5
                        This is at least part of the issue. Most of the examples of winning from the front come from days prior to the pacemaker at least to the extent we see it today. None of these guys has a "style" of Dave Bedford, Bayi, even Foster's mid race surge. They are all much more used to a get on the guy in front of you's back and ride around the track.
                        Foster's mid race surge pace would be par for the course for the whole race these days.

                        Comment


                        • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                          Originally posted by aaronk
                          I think a big reason why we haven't seen "team running" in distance races for the USA....is simply because the USA has rarely, if ever, HAD 3 guys (or gals) in a Championship final before in 5K, 10K, or SC races.
                          Thus, they've had few, if any, chances to practice "team strategy".
                          Finally, IF they were doing some sort of "team strategy" in the 5K, it didn't work!!

                          Now, if they instead had moved to the front....all three of them......and THEN worked together to share the lead, box others in, etc.....it might have garnered one or more of them a medal.
                          The Kenyans and Ethiopians have done it, so why not the USA??

                          We had the team.......we just didn't have the SCHEME!!! :lol:
                          I would throw out there that typically African countries have team orders, as it's more important to them that someone from their country wins a medal than who that individual is. For Americans (and other nations, also) there is no incentive in Lagat helping another American, as sponsorship is on the line - he gets a much higher pay day if he wins a medal / is top American

                          It's something that amazes me with the use of domestiques in the cycling, but it's par for the course - it isn't for runners where they run for money outside of the Government (just ask Nick Symmonds how hard that money is to find! :wink: )

                          Comment


                          • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                            Originally posted by Randy Treadway
                            Professional athletics, in ANY sport, is competition for the attention of the ticket-buying public. . . . to be successful, the 5K or any other event is going to have to be what the general public would like it to be, if you want them to spend money to come see it. I don't expect most people on this board to agree, because you ARE the purists who will buy that ticket regardless.
                            1. The average sports fan doesn't care about the first part of the race. This is why the likes of NBC shows the start, goes to other event updates, hits for a commercial break, and then comes back and shows the final 3 laps. By the way, the final 3 laps in this race was "all that". As good as it gets.

                            2. The "purists" as you call it are actually the one's who are probably complaining. That is why we get comments about comparing the final time of Bob Schul and the winning time from 1964. The average sports fan who happened to watch the race wouldn't know a 12:53 from a 13:53, they care more about how exciting a race is and the uncertainty until the last lap with 10 contenders certainly would add to that. These people are likely hurting the sport the most because they try and convince everyone else the races suck unless someone is going all out from the beginning.

                            3. It is sad when people have to have lap split times and the final time to see if they "enjoyed" the race. This is an inherent problem with track and field and purists. Any event is always going to be compared to the stopwatch of years past. How fortunate for the NFL, NBA, etc. that every play is not "measured". The measurements only cripple the enjoyment capacity of those who cannot get past the fact that someone in 1972 may have gone through a first 2k in X time while these guys went out in a slower time, totally ignoring the last 6 laps being close to 4:00 per mile pace.

                            Comment


                            • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                              4. The events should be about racing and getting enjoyment out of racing, regardless of strategy employed. I go to local high school meets and enjoy watching the competition. I could care less what their split times are. Watching athletes compete is exciting and enjoyable.

                              5. Except in rare circumstances (ala David Rudisha) are we going to see athletes who can run the legs off of the others. Virtually anyone who goes all out at the beginning of a race will sacrifice themselves and have no chance for a high placing. Yes, we have seen some incredible races like that in the last 15 years, but there are more athletes today who can handle sub 13 and sub 12:50 paces than in years past. This was evidenced in Paris where no less than 6 people broke 12:50 and 11 broke 13. Several of those who did break 13 in Paris were smoked by others who were NOT in Paris at the Pre meet. What did most of those runners learn from those races? They surely had no chance to go all out in the Olympics and had any chance to sniff the medals.

                              My suggestion Randy, is to learn to enjoy watching the great athletes compete in whatever strategy they decide to employ and not worry about times. There are plenty of races every year where you can get your fill of fast timed races. This is where the sport has to go to survive because the ghost of times past and unrealistic expectations will crush the sport if people [purists] cannot get past them.

                              Comment


                              • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                                Originally posted by odelltrclan
                                4. The events should be about racing and getting enjoyment out of racing, regardless of strategy employed. I go to local high school meets and enjoy watching the competition. I could care less what their split times are. Watching athletes compete is exciting and enjoyable.
                                I go to high school meets, too, but I definitely am interested in the split times, because I am very interested in how runners choose to pace themselves. It's not about the times telling me whether I enjoyed the race, honest! >:-)


                                Originally posted by odelltrclan
                                My suggestion Randy, is to learn to enjoy watching the great athletes compete in whatever strategy they decide to employ and not worry about times. There are plenty of races every year where you can get your fill of fast timed races. This is where the sport has to go to survive because the ghost of times past and unrealistic expectations will crush the sport if people [purists] cannot get past them.
                                Second that.

                                Let me contrast the Randy/aaronk position on tactical races with my position re Montano's (too)fast-pace-setting tactics in the 800.

                                It seems to me than Randy/aaronk are trying to IMPOSE their taste/preference on other people, i.e. the runners themselves. Randy says, "...that's not what the 5K is about." So, would he and aaronk be in favor of a rule that disqualifies runners for "not honest effort" if they run too slowly the first part of a race, i.e. something like: "Any runners is disqualified if he/she fails to cover the first <fill in percentage> of his/her race within <fill in percentage> of the pace of the overall time." Yes, this is ridiculous, but, basically, they would like to FORCE the runners to go for fast times so that people will buy tickets to see them.

                                OTOH, I have no interest whatsoever in forcing Alysia Montano to run her races any other way; I simply think that she is hurting her chances to win a medal by 1) setting herself up as a rabbit for the field and 2) going into early oxygen debt by running the first 200 under 27 seconds.
                                Cheers,
                                Alan Shank

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X