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¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

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  • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

    Alan Shank says that Randy Treadway and I try to "impose" our desire for fast races in the OG on the runners.
    I won't speak for Randy (But thanks for agreeing with me!!), but I am NOT trying to "impose" my beliefs on anyone.
    I'm just stating my honest heartfelt opinion, like everybody else here.
    And I'm surely not "ordering" them to run faster!!
    As if they'd ever listen to me.....or anyone else here, except for their coach and their God!!
    DO these "elites" read the Message Board??
    Are they reading MY comments??
    If so, then......

    Hi there, Galen!!
    Hey, Brigetta, I LOVE your pre-jump routine!!
    Lolo, sweetheart, don't let those critics get you down!!

    Anyway, back to what I was saying!!
    I do NOT expect a WR or even an OR in the distance events.
    Only in DL races or places like Stanford and Eugene.

    All I'm asking is that they run something CLOSE......or at least CLOSER......to what they run outside of Championship races.
    For example, in the men's 5K, would it have been so difficult, and hurtful to their medal chances, to ask that the runners reach the 3K point in about 8:00??
    That's just 13:20 pace. Still a relative jog.
    THEN they can run their sub-4:00 mile, with their final time in the 13:00 to 13:10 range.
    Not WR or OR record, but an "honest effort".
    Much more so than 13:41!!

    In the SC, where the OR is a decent 8:05, would it be too much to ask to run below 8:12??
    The women's 1500.
    Oh boy!!
    At least run equal to what you did in the heats or semis!!
    4:05??
    The slow pace had as much to do with anything else for Uceny's fall!!
    A crowd like that with 400 to go is just asking for trouble!!
    With a pace set for low 4's (4:05 or faster), you probably would have had just HALF of the runners that were bunched up at that point!!

    Anyway, all you great athletes, if you DO read my (and other's) stuff....feel free to comment!!

    Comment


    • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

      aaronk, you come off as naive [and your various posts over the year indicate you are not] when you stress so substantially that it is poor race because it went out slow or had a time less then the SB. Naive because the runners have a lexicographic preference function that says:

      Place matters above all else
      Marks only matter within a given place, so a great mark with a Bronze is not the equal of a slower mark for Silver.

      Further, the proposed altered pacing almost never would be advantageous ex ante to the athletes cited. It is not of relevance what they finished (ex post), it is what the distribution of outcomes is ex ante.

      This notion that the 5000 runners dogged it because they waited to run 4:48 for the last 2000 (a world-class 5000 mark) and finished with a 52 is likewise either a preference set I am not in the least bit interested in or a misunderstanding of of the sport. None of top distance runners that I know hold the opinion you are voicing.

      Comment


      • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

        Originally posted by aaronk
        Alan Shank says that Randy Treadway and I try to "impose" our desire for fast races in the OG on the runners.
        I won't speak for Randy (But thanks for agreeing with me!!), but I am NOT trying to "impose" my beliefs on anyone.
        I'm just stating my honest heartfelt opinion, like everybody else here.
        And I'm surely not "ordering" them to run faster!!

        All I'm asking is that they run something CLOSE......or at least CLOSER......to what they run outside of Championship races.
        First you say you are just stating an opinion, but you turn right around and "ask" them to run your way. So, in fact, you ARE NOT just stating an opinion. "I ask you to do something" is not an opinion.

        Originally posted by aaronk
        For example, in the men's 5K, would it have been so difficult, and hurtful to their medal chances, to ask that the runners reach the 3K point in about 8:00??
        That's just 13:20 pace. Still a relative jog.
        THEN they can run their sub-4:00 mile, with their final time in the 13:00 to 13:10 range.
        Not WR or OR record, but an "honest effort".
        Much more so than 13:41!!

        In the SC, where the OR is a decent 8:05, would it be too much to ask to run below 8:12??
        The women's 1500.
        Oh boy!!
        At least run equal to what you did in the heats or semis!!
        4:05??
        Ask, ask, ask.
        Cheers,
        Alan Shank

        Comment


        • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

          "Don't ask, don't tell"??

          Or......

          "Ask.....and ye shall receive!!"

          Comment


          • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

            Originally posted by 26mi235
            This notion that the 5000 runners dogged it because they waited to run 4:48 for the last 2000 (a world-class 5000 mark) and finished with a 52 is likewise either a preference set I am not in the least bit interested in or a misunderstanding of of the sport. None of top distance runners that I know hold the opinion you are voicing.
            Thank you! A race finishing in sub 5:00 for a 2k and just slightly over 6:00 for the last 2400 should never be included in the same paragraphs as "dogging it". Those are good performances at those distances if those events had been run in and of themselves. To finish a race in those times, even if the first 3k is at fairly elite HS pace for that distance [8:42] is very impressive. Those athletes acquitted themselves quite well in that race and if you could not be entertained with that race, you should not watch another OG 5k again, because you are not a fan of racing, just the stopwatch.

            Comment


            • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

              "This notion that the 5000 runners dogged it because they waited to run 4:48 for the last 2000 (a world-class 5000 mark) and finished with a 52 is likewise either a preference set I am not in the least bit interested in or a misunderstanding of of the sport. None of top distance runners that I know hold the opinion you are voicing".

              Don't know where you got the 4:48 from - the WR is 4:44.79 and there are only 3 sub 4:48s in 2K races. Even Komen didn't run that time in his 3K record!

              Comment


              • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                Originally posted by catson52
                "This notion that the 5000 runners dogged it because they waited to run 4:48 for the last 2000 (a world-class 5000 mark) and finished with a 52 is likewise either a preference set I am not in the least bit interested in or a misunderstanding of of the sport. None of top distance runners that I know hold the opinion you are voicing".

                Don't know where you got the 4:48 from - the WR is 4:44.79 and there are only 3 sub 4:48s in 2K races. Even Komen didn't run that time in his 3K record!
                Probably just a mis-type; it was 4:58, might fast.
                Cheers,
                Alan Shank

                Comment


                • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                  Originally posted by TN1965
                  Originally posted by Gebfan2
                  Here are the 1k splits:
                  1k Koech 2:55.40
                  2k Lomong 5:56.70
                  3k Alamirew 8:42.95
                  4k Gebremeskel 11:16.47
                  5k Farah 13:41.66

                  That's under 5:00 for the last 2k. What isn't amazing about that?
                  Bekele ran the last 2k of Beijing final even faster, while leading the whole race in the last 3K, and still finished under 13. (And he closed in 53 with 3 sec margin.) With a 8:43 3K split, it takes a faster closing speed to be amazing.
                  Okay, the pre-2010 Bekele is even more amazing, and the 2012 Farah loses to the 2008 Bekele. But any race that has 4 runners who finish the last 5 laps at less than a 60 seconds per lap average, with a winner running 4:58 while weaving in and out, speeding up, slowing down, etc., still fits my definition of "amazing--even though on the continuum of 5k races there are a handful of races that may rank even higher on the "astonishment and wonder" scale.

                  Comment


                  • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                    Originally posted by Gebfan2

                    Okay, the pre-2010 Bekele is even more amazing, and the 2012 Farah loses to the 2008 Bekele. But any race that has 4 runners who finish the last 5 laps at less than a 60 seconds per lap average, with a winner running 4:58 while weaving in and out, speeding up, slowing down, etc., still fits my definition of "amazing--even though on the continuum of 5k races there are a handful of races that may rank even higher on the "astonishment and wonder" scale.
                    Yeah, I thought it was a hell of a race. The 2003 and 2008 were better, maybe even '04 and '09, but these were all great races.

                    I was just watching the last half of the M 10K, and I thought it was the least interesting of the four M & W 5 & 10. With four laps to go and the pace up to then not fast, they ran a couple of 66s, a 62 as they jockied for position, then bah-boom-bah. Great last 400, though. Different people kept taking the lead after the 14:05 first half, but they ran 2:47, 2:40 (that was Tadese, who pushed the '09 race under 27), 2:47 and 2:46.
                    Cheers,
                    Alan Shank

                    Comment


                    • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                      The Olympics are not about time, or height, or distance- they're about PLACE. How many olympic medalists would trade their medal for a PR, or even a world record? I suspect the number is zero. Off the top of your head, does anybody remember what Rupp's time was in the 10k just a week and a half ago? Some do, most don't, but everybody remembers that he won silver, and how he won it. That was RACING and PLACING.

                      Yeah the 5k times sucked, but boy there was some serious RACING going on over the last 5 laps, with an exciting finish. Who doesn't like that? Three guys will be described as olympic medalists for the rest of their lives, and I'm pretty sure that's all they care about. Fast times are a bonus, and there aren't many Rudishas in the world.

                      Comment


                      • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                        As I wrote in another thread, this canard that a time well below a time-trial best means that the event participants were lazy or that it is not a good race is so bad that it is "not even wrong" (ask the physicists for the full implications).

                        Further, to keep posting this notion after you have said it once is unnecessary because there is simply no content that is added by anything that is said; posting a dozen times in the same or related threads is an exercise that indicates a very narrow notion (understanding?) of the nature of competition. Summary -- I do not know of a top coach or athlete that is particularly partial to this notion in any way, shape or form, and if that does not tell you something then maybe you are 'tone deaf'.

                        Comment


                        • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                          Originally posted by pickle47
                          It is axiomatic that the athlete that leads early and the majority of the race gets beaten at the end. At this level the odds are that the early leader will not be on the podium. Can you imagine the pre-race meetings between athlete and coach? They talk about all the different ways that the race can go and the best strategies...and no coach tells their athlete, "Go hard from the gun and make them all hurt."

                          All of the first seven or eight athlete in this year's 5k can run a 53 last lap, even off of a 13min pace. The odds are better to duke it out the last lap than to CERTAINLY go down in flames to the kickers after leading a lot of the race. Yes, there are exceptions, and they are just that...exceptions.

                          John Ngugi in the '08 5k is a perfect example. He made it look easy, so why aren't all of the Kenyans running that way? Because he was unique. Filbert Bayi won one big race that way, and then he finished second to Walker and Jipcho every time after that because they knew how he would run and they prepared and out-kicked him.

                          Team running is a great idea, someone simply needs to volunteer to finish second. How do you go to a gunfight and not save one last bullet when you are supposed to empty your gun on behalf of your team?

                          The objective is to WIN, and no one at this level is trying to do anything but that the best way they know how. And the best way is NOT to try to run everyone into the ground unless you are vastly superior to the field. Sorry, unless you THINK you are vastly superior, because you never know for sure whether there is a 19yr old Ethiopian coming up that you've never heard of that can hang with you and blow your doors off. Just ask Mo about Daegu.
                          Exactly so.
                          The posts about times just convinces that posters with boundless recall about the past are stating the irrelevant; we would be wise to forget Diamond Leagues or the past.
                          Any of the runners on the track for the 5/10K men and women races who had gone haring off for a good part of those would have lost out or more to the point thats what the athletes thought. By the way there never was any chance that Rupp, Lomong or Lagat would be up front making serious hard pace for others.

                          Comment


                          • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                            aaronk, judging by your posts, it appears as though you were, in fact, looking for an Olympic record from the onset. You had a set pace pegged for the 1500m, stated how easy it should be to hit the splits you indicated and set an OR. History suggested otherwise. The race didn't unfold to your liking. You carried that same hope and accumulated grudge from even to event -- including the walks. Concluding with the marathon. Eventually lambasting the efforts put forth by the distance racers. Eventually, someone concluded that you should stop watching the marathon when the OR slipped from Kiprotich/Kirui/Kiprotich's grasps. Lamenting the lack of OR's was repetitious. And got old. Fast. In Olympic message board record time.

                            The Olympics are also about PB's: improvement on place. Many will walk away from the Games happy they set an Olympic PB. Mo Farah set two HUGE PB's in the Games. Lifetime bests he can only equal going forward. He may run faster if he's in another Olympic track final (he may move up to the marathon), but I assume with all certainty that he's over the moon with the PB's he's already set.

                            Comment


                            • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                              Aaronk
                              The athletes who care about setting best performances at the Olympics are those athletes who have no chance of getting a medal. Those athletes who have realistic chances of getting a medal don't give a frig about what time or distance they achieve - as long as they get a medal.

                              All races from 1500m up are about tactics. In the finals for races 400m and below there is only one tactic runs fast as you bloody well can because you don't have time to play tactics.

                              The 800m can go either way - it is usually a tactical race as well, except when you have the monstrous presence of a David Rudisha who gives the others no chance of playing tactics. He is, as others have said, the ultimate rabbit. Unfortunately for his fellow competitors he is a rabbit that obviously has never read the story of the race between the rabbit and the (7) tortoise(s).

                              Comment


                              • Re: ¶2012 OG: m5000–Mo Farah 13:41.66 wins 5/10 double

                                While i too think that the time is irrelevant to the winner, i just don't understand those who have no chance of winning not wanting to make some kind of effort. Do they all honestly think they can outsprint Mo or Bernie in a slow race ??

                                I would have much more respect for those who decide to go down in a blaze of glory than those who are happy to jog around at the back and end up where they expected in the firs place. What's the point of being there unless you play to your strengths ?? :?
                                i deserve extra credit

                                Comment

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