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Is The 800m a Sprint?

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  • #31
    Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

    Probably five times as many women do the 400/800 double as men. I had men in mind primarily with my statement, although I am not sure why the sprint/dash difference should be big between them. I suspect that the 400 is a little more 'tactical' for the women than for the men. However, for both even the 200 is not quite 'all-out' (every step in the sense that they are not going as fast as they could at 70 meters because the rate of slowing in the 100 is much different between 80 and 100 m than it is in the 200) and the 400 certainly is.

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    • #32
      Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

      Originally posted by croflash
      Of course there are some tactics involved in the 400 despite the lanes. A lot of athletes don't go out as fast as they could during the first part of the race to save enough for the homestretch. It's not an all out sprint for the entire duration of the race even though they are close to the maximum throughout. They can't just "run like hell" without thinking.
      But smart 400 runners know how they will dose out their energy before the race starts, they aren't reacting to what the other runners are doing. Sanya used to react to other runners and you see how well that worked out. It was only when she began to stick to her pre-determined race plan that she began to win global championships. Indoor 400's are tactical. Outdoor 400's are time trials. Time trials, by definition, are not tactical.

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      • #33
        Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

        Originally posted by jazzcyclist
        Originally posted by croflash
        Of course there are some tactics involved in the 400 despite the lanes. A lot of athletes don't go out as fast as they could during the first part of the race to save enough for the homestretch. It's not an all out sprint for the entire duration of the race even though they are close to the maximum throughout. They can't just "run like hell" without thinking.
        But smart 400 runners know how they will dose out their energy before the race starts, they aren't reacting to what the other runners are doing. Sanya used to react to other runners and you see how well that worked out. It was only when she began to stick to her pre-determined race plan that she began to win global championships. Indoor 400's are tactical. Outdoor 400's are time trials. Time trials, by definition, are not tactical.
        That is exactly my point. They are using predetermined tactics and don't overreact or get too excited during the race and simply execute their plan. The latter is easier said than done at times unless you are so far ahead of everyone else that tactics hardly matter. As long as some sort of thinking process is involved (prior or during the actual race), there is always a tactical element to it.

        And I don't agree that "time trials" are not tactical. It's still a race against the other competitors, plus against the clock. The quality of the opponents can most definitely directly impact the predetermined tactics. Beating the clock requires thinking, you run as fast as you can while taking your own ability into account.

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        • #34
          Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

          Originally posted by croflash
          That is exactly my point. They are using predetermined tactics and don't overreact or get too excited during the race and simply execute their plan. The latter is easier said than done at times unless you are so far ahead of everyone else that tactics hardly matter. As long as some sort of thinking process is involved (prior or during the actual race), there is always a tactical element to it.
          You and I use the word "tactical" differently. To me, when a runner races tactically, he/she is reacting to the other runners. As long as that runner is ignoring the other runners, he/she isn't using tactics.

          Originally posted by croflash
          And I don't agree that "time trials" are not tactical. It's still a race against the other competitors, plus against the clock. The quality of the opponents can most definitely directly impact the predetermined tactics. Beating the clock requires thinking, you run as fast as you can while taking your own ability into account.
          Wrong! Perhaps the word "tactical " can be used subjectively, but the phrase "time trial" most certainly can't. Any time a runner, cyclist or swimmer reacts to what his/her competitors are doing, by defintion, he/she is not time trialing. Time trialing means racing against the clock for the entire race and letting the chips fall where they may.

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          • #35
            Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

            Allow me to interject if I may. Time trialling is not done in a track meet. It is done in practice. Racing is done at track meets for all intents and purposes. Races involve tactics.

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            • #36
              Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

              Originally posted by EPelle
              Allow me to interject if I may. Time trialling is not done in a track meet. It is done in practice. Racing is done at track meets for all intents and purposes. Races involve tactics.
              Excellent point. EVERY track race begins with a genuine field and the point is still to win. Some wins are easier than others, but all involve tactical decisions.

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              • #37
                Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                Originally posted by EPelle
                Allow me to interject if I may. Time trialling is not done in a track meet. It is done in practice. Racing is done at track meets for all intents and purposes. Races involve tactics.
                What tactics are involved in the 100? What about at the high school and college level when there's a distance runner so superior to everyone else that he/she runs solo from the gun. I saw both Jenny Barringer's NCAA indoor and outdoor finals in person her senior year, and I can assure you that both of those races were time trials for her.

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                • #38
                  Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                  Originally posted by kuha
                  Some wins are easier than others, but all involve tactical decisions.
                  Wrong! Some involve tacical decisions, including most of the distance races. But there are exceptions to this rule as David Rudisha proved last week in London, when he treated the 800 final like a time trial and there was nothing anybody in that race could do about it.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                    Originally posted by kuha
                    Some wins are easier than others, but all involve tactical decisions.
                    Wrong! Some involve tacical decisions, including most of the distance races. But there are exceptions to this rule as David Rudisha proved last week in London, when he treated the 800 final like a time trial and there was nothing anybody in that race could do about it.
                    To me, tactics include proper self-assessment prior to the race. If you think you are better than you are actually capable of showing, your tactics can and will backfire even if you happen to be the overwhelming favorite. You try to run the best possible race in accordance with your own ability and thus determine the tactics. If your goal is to run a certain time while trying to win the race, you still need to stay within yourself.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                      Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                      Originally posted by kuha
                      Some wins are easier than others, but all involve tactical decisions.
                      Wrong! Some involve tacical decisions, including most of the distance races. But there are exceptions to this rule as David Rudisha proved last week in London, when he treated the 800 final like a time trial and there was nothing anybody in that race could do about it.
                      No, you're wrong. To begin with, Rudisha made the "tactical decision" to go through the 400 within his known limit, not in 47.5 or whatever. Why? Because he was dedicated to WINNING the race, and not (potentially) being reduced to a 60 second final lap. In a genuine time trial, one has no concern whatever about beating any opponents. It's just false to pretend that he had "no" concern about the rest of the field. His idea was to race them according to HIS strengths, not theirs. And that's clearly a "tactic."

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                      • #41
                        Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                        Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                        What tactics are involved in the 100? What about at the high school and college level when there's a distance runner so superior to everyone else that he/she runs solo from the gun. I saw both Jenny Barringer's NCAA indoor and outdoor finals in person her senior year, and I can assure you that both of those races were time trials for her.
                        I wanted to interject, because I understand croflash's point. And, I agree with him. He's not without just cause in his statements. Can you name a reason why the 100m is not capable of involving tactics?

                        Tactics can be used in the 100m to exploit gaps in the field of contestants to generate the outcome desired by the person deploying them. I believe that if Gay, in attempting to beat Bolt, for example, decides he needs to concentrate on getting in a fast reaction (faster than Bolt's 0,14-0,17 standards), prolong his drive phase longer to reach Bolt by a certain point on the track because he believes being equal to -- or ahead of -- Bolt by a that earlier point will cause Bolt to run outside of his 'normal' strategy, Gay will have used a tactic...a task Gay employed specifically to meet a certain objective of defeating Bolt in the race.

                        The 100m is a race. It's contested in one lane the entirety of the race. Being that it is a race and involves contestants who are sprinting for less than 10 seconds doesn't make it non-tactical.

                        As far as the superior high schooler is concerned, Alan Webb ran a 4.06 in a high school meet, clipping a 1.52 final 800m to close off the race. There was no point in time-trialling a solo 4.06. What he did was attempt to gain the requisite closing speed he'd need (eventually lack) at the 2001 USA Championships.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                          Originally posted by EPelle

                          Tactics can be used in the 100m to exploit gaps in the field of contestants to generate the outcome desired by the person deploying them. I believe that if Gay, in attempting to beat Bolt, for example, decides he needs to concentrate on getting in a fast reaction (faster than Bolt's 0,14-0,17 standards), prolong his drive phase longer than normal to reach Bolt by a certain point on the track because he believes being equal to -- or ahead of Bolt by a that earlier point -- will cause Bolt to run outside of his 'normal' strategy, Gay will have used a tactic...a task Gay employed specifically to meet a certain objective of defeating Bolt in the race.
                          Come on. Tactics in the 100 after the race has started? Some lose it before the race has started, which is not quite the same thing.

                          If Gay is actually thinking like that, no wonder he got fourth.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                            Prior to the race. Gay couldn't conceivably try to gain a faster start once he was already under way in the race. In any event, he has a pre-determined idea (tactic/strategy) of what he's going to unleash in the race.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                              Originally posted by kuha
                              Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                              Wrong! Some involve tacical decisions, including most of the distance races. But there are exceptions to this rule as David Rudisha proved last week in London, when he treated the 800 final like a time trial and there was nothing anybody in that race could do about it.
                              No, you're wrong. To begin with, Rudisha made the "tactical decision" to go through the 400 within his known limit, not in 47.5 or whatever. Why? Because he was dedicated to WINNING the race, and not (potentially) being reduced to a 60 second final lap. In a genuine time trial, one has no concern whatever about beating any opponents. It's just false to pretend that he had "no" concern about the rest of the field. His idea was to race them according to HIS strengths, not theirs. And that's clearly a "tactic."
                              I don't think he had any concern for the rest of the field. He said that he decided to go for the WR a couple of days before the race which meant low-49 for the first lap, and he fully expected to be running alone since he knew there was no one capable of going with him. As I said to croflash earlier, perhaps we define "tactics" differently. To me, tactics are something that can only be used during the race when you're reacting to others, not before the race when you're trying to decide what pace you're capable of.

                              EDIT: Tactics might have come into play if one of the other runners had decided to beat him to the rail after the break, forcing Rudisha to decide midrace when to pass him, but the other seven runners all decided to let him have the rail and use him as a rabbit, thus sparing Rudisha from having to make that decision.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                                Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                                I don't think he had any concern for the rest of the field. perhaps we define "tactics" differently. To me, tactics are something that can only be used during the race when you're reacting to others, not before the race when you're trying to decide what pace you're capable of.
                                It is impossible that he had "no concern" for the rest of the field. He was confident, yes, but of course he had SOME concern--it was the Olympic final, after all, and the medal had not yet been engraved with his name on it. I define tactics pretty simply: the variety (and there are a variety) of strategic intentions and actions taken to achieve a particular goal in a competitive test. Some races call for more, some for less, but no race calls for none.

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