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Is The 800m a Sprint?

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  • #46
    Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

    Originally posted by kuha
    It is impossible that he had "no concern" for the rest of the field. He was confident, yes, but of course he had SOME concern--it was the Olympic final, after all, and the medal had not yet been engraved with his name on it. I define tactics pretty simply: the variety (and there are a variety) of strategic intentions and actions taken to achieve a particular goal in a competitive test. Some races call for more, some for less, but no race calls for none.
    My guess is that Rudisha's biggest concerns were 1) being able to get the pace right for the first part of the race, and to a lesser extent, 2) being able to hold up physically for the second part of the race.

    I think all runners, at all distances, no matter how dominant they are worry about #2 - their body letting them down unexpectedly in an Olympic or World Championship final. In Rudisha's case, his workouts leading up to the Olympics, and his first two rounds at the Olympics, probably had him pretty confident that the engine was firing on all cyclinders, and a misfire in the final was very unlikely. Otherwise he wouldn't have had the confidence to take it out at WR pace, rather he would have run a tacical race, just to win, and perhaps even let someone else lead off the break. Therefore, he probably went into that race thinking that if he got the pace right (#1), the WR would come, and since no one else was capable of running sub-1:41, the WR would bring with it the gold medal.

    Bolt, on the other hand, probably had a lot of concerns about the engine misfiring before the 100 final, due to his recent injuries and his two losses to Blake at the trials. And though he didn't worry about pace, since there is no pacing in the 100, he did worry about executing his start properly.

    Then there's Sanya, who has a history of getting the pace wrong AND engine misfires at inopportune times. When she's 100% fit and gets the pace right, she's just as dominant as Rudisha relative to current 400 runners. Unfortunately for her, those two things haven't come together very often during her career.

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    • #47
      Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

      I think we are on the same page for the most part. The main difference seems to be the definition of strategy and tactics and which is which.

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      • #48
        Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

        Originally posted by croflash
        I think we are on the same page for the most part. The main difference seems to be the definition of strategy and tactics and which is which.
        I agree. This seems to be more about semantics than anything.

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        • #49
          Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

          Third the motion.

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          • #50
            Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

            Originally posted by JRM
            In my opinion (and perhaps this is a formal definition), a sprint is a race that relies on anaerobic exertion. Anything aerobic is not a sprint. A study I once read calculated that the anaerobic exertion limit is somewhere around 300m (270m comes to mind), but I don't believe that's quite correct. It's probably closer to 400m. In any event, 0-300m are definitely sprints, the 400m is on the fence, and everything else is aerobic.
            Now that everyone seems to agree on tactics, let's go back to the real difference between sprint and non-sprint, which is anaerobic vs. aerobic. The issue here is that there's no specific point with a complete switch from anaerobic to aerobic energy systems. Instead, the longer the distance, the lower the percentage of energy that is generated via an anaerobic energy system.

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            • #51
              Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

              Not scientific but in my experience, in races optimally paced for your ability, in the 400 you run out of legs before you run out of breath. In the 1500/mile you run out of breath before you run out of legs. In the 800 you run out of both.

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              • #52
                Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                Originally posted by j-a-m
                Originally posted by JRM
                In my opinion (and perhaps this is a formal definition), a sprint is a race that relies on anaerobic exertion. Anything aerobic is not a sprint. A study I once read calculated that the anaerobic exertion limit is somewhere around 300m (270m comes to mind), but I don't believe that's quite correct. It's probably closer to 400m. In any event, 0-300m are definitely sprints, the 400m is on the fence, and everything else is aerobic.
                Now that everyone seems to agree on tactics, let's go back to the real difference between sprint and non-sprint, which is anaerobic vs. aerobic. The issue here is that there's no specific point with a complete switch from anaerobic to aerobic energy systems. Instead, the longer the distance, the lower the percentage of energy that is generated via an anaerobic energy system.
                I think we should look at the longest distance which can be raced on completely anaerobic energy. I think it's somewhere between 200 and 250 meters (20-25 seconds) based on elite swimmers. Runners breathe even in the 60-meter dash, not because they need the oxygen, but more of a rhythm thing. However, swimmers only breathe when its necessary since taking a breath slows them down.

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                • #53
                  Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                  Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                  Originally posted by j-a-m
                  Originally posted by JRM
                  In my opinion (and perhaps this is a formal definition), a sprint is a race that relies on anaerobic exertion. Anything aerobic is not a sprint. A study I once read calculated that the anaerobic exertion limit is somewhere around 300m (270m comes to mind), but I don't believe that's quite correct. It's probably closer to 400m. In any event, 0-300m are definitely sprints, the 400m is on the fence, and everything else is aerobic.
                  Now that everyone seems to agree on tactics, let's go back to the real difference between sprint and non-sprint, which is anaerobic vs. aerobic. The issue here is that there's no specific point with a complete switch from anaerobic to aerobic energy systems. Instead, the longer the distance, the lower the percentage of energy that is generated via an anaerobic energy system.
                  I think we should look at the longest distance which can be raced on completely anaerobic energy. I think it's somewhere between 200 and 250 meters (20-25 seconds) based on elite swimmers. Runners breathe even in the 60-meter dash, not because they need the oxygen, but more of a rhythm thing. However, swimmers only breathe when its necessary since taking a breath slows them down.
                  It is probably closer to 6 seconds for pure anaerobic power. Astrand and Rodahl estimate that even in a 100 meter sprint 85% is anaerobic and the rest aerobic.

                  Just because someone is not breathing, for a short time, does not mean they are only using anaerobic processes.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                    Originally posted by Conor Dary
                    It is probably closer to 6 seconds for pure anaerobic power. Astrand and Rodahl estimate that even in a 100 meter sprint 85% is anaerobic and the rest aerobic.

                    Just because someone is not breathing, for a short time, does not mean they are only using anaerobic processes.
                    If a person isn't breathing, he/she may be using the heart, but defintely not the lungs, which means that whatever oxygen is to be utilized is already on board.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                      Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                      Originally posted by Conor Dary
                      It is probably closer to 6 seconds for pure anaerobic power. Astrand and Rodahl estimate that even in a 100 meter sprint 85% is anaerobic and the rest aerobic.

                      Just because someone is not breathing, for a short time, does not mean they are only using anaerobic processes.
                      If a person isn't breathing, he/she may be using the heart, but defintely not the lungs, which means that whatever oxygen is to be utilized is already on board.
                      Say what? That is not what is meant by anaerobic.

                      The Adenosine Triphosphate-Phosphocreatine System or ATP-PCr is the simplest of energy systems used for high-energy activity lasting only a few seconds. This energy system does not require oxygen, therefore, considered anaerobic. Activities that rely on this system include sprinting, jumping and powerlifting. ATP-PCr stores are very limited and used up quickly, resulting in exhaustion within three to 15 seconds of an all-out intensity activity. Jack H. Wilmore and David L. Costill authors of "Physiology of Sport and Exercise."

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                      • #56
                        Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                        [quote=Conor Dary]
                        Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                        Originally posted by "Conor Dary":1bhfwzx8
                        It is probably closer to 6 seconds for pure anaerobic power. Astrand and Rodahl estimate that even in a 100 meter sprint 85% is anaerobic and the rest aerobic.

                        Just because someone is not breathing, for a short time, does not mean they are only using anaerobic processes.
                        If a person isn't breathing, he/she may be using the heart, but defintely not the lungs, which means that whatever oxygen is to be utilized is already on board.
                        Say what? That is not what is meant by anaerobic.

                        The Adenosine Triphosphate-Phosphocreatine System or ATP-PCr is the simplest of energy systems used for high-energy activity lasting only a few seconds. This energy system does not require oxygen, therefore, considered anaerobic. Activities that rely on this system include sprinting, jumping and powerlifting. ATP-PCr stores are very limited and used up quickly, resulting in exhaustion within three to 15 seconds of an all-out intensity activity. Jack H. Wilmore and David L. Costill authors of "Physiology of Sport and Exercise."[/quote:1bhfwzx8]
                        I'm familiar with these concepts but my point that is that for efforts of less than 20 seconds, aerobic energy is not required, I wasn't trying to get the minutia of the different types of non-aerobic power.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                          Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                          I wasn't trying to get the minutia
                          You're too modest. This tread is about nothing but minutia, hair-splitting, and semantic bobbing and weaving.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                            Originally posted by kuha
                            Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                            I wasn't trying to get the minutia
                            You're too modest. This tread is about nothing but minutia, hair-splitting, and semantic bobbing and weaving.
                            Agreed. What's a track nut to do when discusiing track with other track nuts?

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                            • #59
                              Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                              Originally posted by Conor Dary
                              It is probably closer to 6 seconds for pure anaerobic power. Astrand and Rodahl estimate that even in a 100 meter sprint 85% is anaerobic and the rest aerobic.
                              Yeah, that's what I thought, even though I didn't remember the specific numbers; even the "real" sprints, 100 and even more so 200, have an aerobic component. And for the 400 it's probably about 50/50 (again, don't remember the exact numbers). So the question is, what percentage of anaerobic do we require to call something a sprint?

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                              • #60
                                Re: Is The 800m a Sprint?

                                Originally posted by Sasuke
                                400/800 seems to work better than 800/1500 (Jepkosgei, Sinclair, Kaki, Symmonds...).
                                And even for the relatively small number of 400/800 doubles there are valid reasons, like the difficulty of running many rounds in those two events. So the real question is, can an elite runner switch from one to the other, within a season or less, and still be an elite runner in the other event. And there have been recent examples for the 400/800 in collegiate t&f that indicate just that.

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