the silence is deafening

[lionelp1]

Wondered whether posters would be so quiet about Maggie Vessey's no banning decision and warning slap on the wrist, if the relatively harmless but banned skin care product substance had been by perhaps a Jamaican sprinter ( remember the toothache lady?)
The issue is not that she benefited or deliberately intended to cheat, but she made a "mistake" that she should have avoided as an athlete who knows that she is responaible for all that gets into her body; the American authorities have been strangely "forgiving"

[gh]

Re: the silence is deafening

The difference in the Vessey case is in the class of drug. Has nothing to do with anybody being "forgiving"; you go by what the rules say. Diuretics and opiates are not in the same class.

[gh]

Re: the silence is deafening

the Vessey penalty, by the way, will cost her a place in the yearly top 40 list, and will knock her down one spot in the U.S. Rankings because of what the loss of the Zagreb mark does to her win-loss record.

[aaronk]

Re: the silence is deafening

Re: the title of this thread.....

Twas the night before Christmas
When all through the house
Not a creature was stirring....
Not even a mouse!!

:lol:

[Blues]

Re: the silence is deafening

The difference in the Vessey case is in the class of drug. Has nothing to do with anybody being "forgiving"; you go by what the rules say. Diuretics and opiates are not in the same class.

Some additional information that's interesting... Maggie Vessey tested positive for the same drug metabolite (canrenone) that Hope Solo of the US women's soccer team tested positive for... Vessey said it was prescribed to her for a skin problem, and Solo said it was prescribed for PMS.. Canrenone is a major metabolite of spironolactone, which means that if you take spironolactone, it'll break down to canrenone in the body. I don't believe any medications in the USA contain canrenone as an ingredient, so the ladies must have taken spironolactone.

Although spironolactone is a potassium sparing diuretic (and as we know, diuretics are banned because they can dilute the urine and mask a drug test), it's prescribed to treat skin problems in women for one reason only, and that's because it also has anti-androgen properties and blocks the effects of androgens like testosterone... It's used to treat acne and unwanted facial/body hair in women IF the acne or facial/body hair are caused by excessive androgen/testosterone levels. The drug can lower testosterone levels, and is sometimes used in male to female transsexuals to lower testosterone levels to a range normally found in women.

Because of that, and even if both positive tests were innocent and inadvertent, SAFP's oxycodone positive may be the less serious of the two positives, since of the two substances, one (canrenone) could be used to treat certain adverse effects of excess testosterone and to lower testosterone levels, while the other (oxycodone) just masks pain.

I don't know how frequently spironolactone is used after a cycle of anabolic steroids, but the comment below is from the Evil Genius Sports Performance website, and bodybuilding sites also mention spironolactone's use as post-cycle therapy after a cycle of anabolic steroids:

"Spironolactone’s anti-androgen effects could make it applicable as an anti-masculinizing compound post androgen cycle for female athletes. The androgen/DHT blocking effects could help estrogen starved hair and skin regain some of the feminine qualities often lost with over use of AAS."

http://evilgsp.blogspot.com/2012/05/spironolactone.html

(I think I may have broken the record for most edits in a single T&FN post. Do I win anything? :wink: )

[Flumpy]

Re: the silence is deafening

I would guess the 'deafening silence' you allude to is because few of us knew anything about it.

[guru]

Re: the silence is deafening

I would guess the 'deafening silence' you allude to is because few of us knew anything about it.

Indeed.

And, there might have been some other news that captured attention...

[Blues]

Re: the silence is deafening

I have to wonder why neither Hope Solo nor Maggie Vessey suspected that they may be taking a banned substance when they started taking these prescriptions. I would think their physicians explained to them what they were being prescribed and why... Whether the word "diuretic" came up in the discussion, or whether the idea of taking a drug to reduce their levels of testosterone or to block effects of testosterone came up, you'd think it would pique their curiosity regarding whether the substance might be a banned substance... And why not look up spironolactone on the WADA chart? It's there in bold print in the banned diuretics section... :?

[Pego]

Re: the silence is deafening

I have to wonder why neither Hope Solo nor Maggie Vessey suspected that they may be taking a banned substance when they started taking these prescriptions.

I am one of the "doves" on the subject of doping around here, but these cases stink to a high heaven :evil: .

[Mighty Favog]

Re: the silence is deafening

My position on the subject is very boring. I figure that USADA's experts know all these things and more, and they've shown no mercy to either "big fish" or small. So if they say the violation only merits this punishment, then I'm guessing they probably know what they're doing. There could be something more sinister going on, but I'm going to let the experts worry about that instead of me.

Boring.

[eldanielfire]

Re: the silence is deafening

I just looked up Maggie Vessey........there are pictures where she looks very muscly compared to other 800m runners......I'm just saying.

The decision does stink by the way. She should have got even a minor ban for what she did.

[gh]

Re: the silence is deafening

How "muscly" one looks is no reason for idle speculation. Please drop that kind of posting from your repertoire.

[tandfman]

Re: the silence is deafening

My position on the subject is very boring. I figure that USADA's experts know all these things and more, and they've shown no mercy to either "big fish" or small. So if they say the violation only merits this punishment, then I'm guessing they probably know what they're doing. There could be something more sinister going on, but I'm going to let the experts worry about that instead of me.

A key fact could have been that she disclosed that she was taking this substance on the doping control form. That could have explained USADA's leniency in this case. Unfortunately, whether or not she listed that medication on her form is not made clear in the USADA press release.

http://www.usada.org/default.asp?uid=4134

[Blues]

Re: the silence is deafening

To be fair to female athletes who may have problems due to elevated testosterone, one thing we should keep in mind is that in some cases what helps athletes to be exceptional athletes is if they have naturally higher levels of testosterone. If, for example, Vessey and Solo have naturally higher levels of testosterone for some reason, those higher levels may not only increase their athletic ability without any cheating being involved, but they might also require them to seek medical care for some of the health or cosmetic problems that are associated with higher levels of testosterone in women.

I've dispensed prescriptions, including spironolactone, to various women over the years who have had health or cosmetic problems due to higher than normal testosterone levels, and none of them were athletes, so requiring a prescription for spironolactone to treat health problems due to elevated testosterone doesn't automatically suggest any unethical behavior by an athlete.

We should also keep in mind that the WADA allowable maximum level of testosterone for a woman is several times higher than the average normal woman's testosterone level, so women with higher natural testosterone levels could very well be within WADA's allowable limits but still face hormonal related health issues due to no fault of their own.

[gh]

Re: the silence is deafening

Note that Vessey plans on continuing to take the stuff, having applied for a "therapeutic exemption"