USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

[gh]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

splits are basically irrelevant; at this level, anybody who isn't running as hard as they can (given the constraints of lane draw and elemental ability to run curves well) from start to finish isn't a medalist anyway.

That's why 21.1 high schoolers can suddenly drop close to a 10th when they get to college (and discover that the 200 isn't race where you jog the curve and then kick).

[EPelle]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Indeed, that Spearmon saves his best for the final 50m or so may appear to be tricks played on the eyes due to others slowing down faster than he is, but it does appear that he's getting out slower than the top placers and gaining in the final stages of the race (again, due to their having slowed at a quicker rate). As we're all aware, Johson's PB/WR race had a curve run faster than he'd ever managed. Bolt's first PB/WR was also run faster than a curve he'd previously managed to split. There was a certain tactic involved in running that fast over 200m. Jazzy hasn't adopted such a belief. I don't have data (splits) on Gay's PB.

[gh]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Au contraire, monsieur, the 200m does, indeed, have tactics. Johnson, Gay and, to an extent, Bolt, got (get) out hard through the curve and relax(ed) as much as possible at a rapid speed coming home. Spearmon's tactic, for better or for worse, has been saving his race for the final 50m. ....

I'm willing to bet that's largely an optical illusion.

[EPelle]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Au contraire, monsieur, the 200m does, indeed, have tactics. Johnson, Gay and, to an extent, Bolt, got (get) out hard through the curve and relax(ed) as much as possible at a rapid speed coming home. Spearmon's tactic, for better or for worse, has been saving his race for the final 50m. Regarding Felix's degree of effort applied in her relays, for clarification I meant that she isn't blasting off from the incoming runner without the baton and/or expending all of her energy before she reaches the third leg runner. Daegu wasn't London. Obviously something changed with one or more of the legs and the way the race was prepared for and contested. That's absolutley OK if we have opposing degrees of confidence in what, speculatively, Felix would have/could have/might have/should have done on an anchor leg five seasons back. She's a different monster than she was then. May she have run herself (and team USA) out of the number one spot if she were on anchor? It's possible, but not likely (in my opinion). Would she today, three championship seasons under her belt later? Not likely at all. Whatsoever.

[gh]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

The likelihood of Felix having to make much in the way of "tactical decisions" is very slight, no matter what leg she's on, for the simple reason that I don't see her getting the baton anywhere but in 1st and doing what she has been doing so well for all these years already, which is let it all hang out and watch people fade in the rearview mirror.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Personally, I consider Felix a professional who has tactical awareness. She displays this in her signature event, the 200m,

There are no tacitcs involved in the open 200.

and in the 4x1—she knows when to take off, where to pass and how much effort to apply on her leg. Everything is precise.

She was a little late getting out on Daegu causing Bianca Knight to run up her back. And if she's guaging how much effort to apply, she's not running all out. There shouldn't be any gauging of effort in the 4x100.

She's been running world-class sprints for a number of years. And she's not new to the 400m. Nothing to me indicates that she, as a precise relay sprinter with excellent presence of mind on the track, would freeze up if pressed on the 4x4 anchor leg in Beijing. That's my own opinion.

All either of us can do is speculate, but I'm not as confident in her as you are.

[EPelle]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Personally, I consider Felix a professional who has tactical awareness. She displays this in her signature event, the 200m, and in the 4x1—she knows when to take off, where to pass and how much effort to apply on her leg. Everything is precise. She's been running world-class sprints for a number of years. And she's not new to the 400m. Nothing to me indicates that she, as a precise relay sprinter with excellent presence of mind on the track, would freeze up if pressed on the 4x4 anchor leg in Beijing. That's my own opinion. With respect to Felix, I'm not of the opinion that she's the sole reason the USA has been dominant at 4x4 since she started competing on the national teams.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Yep. She's one of the greatest 200m sprinters in history. And very technically sound. Same applies.

I wasn't talking about running technique, I was talking about relay fundamentals. Since Allyson's been running on national teams, she's never had to run in traffic on the 4x400. Since she never ran college track, who knows how she would respond if put in position where she had to make tactical decisions. One thing that I already know is that she doesn't secure the baton the way Sanya does.

[EPelle]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Yep. She's one of the greatest 200m sprinters in history. And very technically sound. Same applies.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Another thing about Sanya is that she's one of the greatest 400m runners in history.

Yeah, there's that too. When one of the greatest runners is also the most technically sound runner, what you end up with is an invaluable relay runner. If Allyson Felix had anchored in 2008 instead of Sanya, would she have shown the patience that Sanya showed, without which the U.S. might have lost the race?

[JumboElliott]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Another thing about Sanya is that she's one of the greatest 400m runners in history.

[mump boy]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

• 1) She always carries the baton securely so that it can't be knocked out of her hand when she's in traffic. Some of the other runners carry the baton like a loaf of bread and are an accident waiting to happen.
  2) She keeps the baton moving through the exchange zone rather than receive the baton from a stand-still like some of the other runners do. I've seen her gain two meters on other teams by doing this.
  3) Her tactics are impeccable. She never passes on the curves or catches unnecessary wind. I can't say this for some of the other runners on the team.

Could someone please send these very simple pointers to the UK team

[TxHottrack]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

And Sanya usually gets an easy last leg because she has such a big lead given to her by Allyson.

Obviously she could do a lot more if necessary but it's not usually needed.

That's why I think it's best for Sanya to be on 1st leg or even 3rd. USA can pull another person for anchor leg and still win. I like it best when other teams chasing us down oppose to the other way around. Sanya 1st, Felix 2nd, Dee Dee 3rd, and anchor: Hastings, McCory, Beards and so on!

We also have this line up: Dee Dee 1st, Felix 2nd, Sanya 3rd, and anchor: Hastings, McCory, Beards and so on!

The one downside for putting Sanya on scratch leg is that you lose the benefit of the some of the subtle things she does better than everyone else:

• 1) She always carries the baton securely so that it can't be knocked out of her hand when she's in traffic. Some of the other runners carry the baton like a loaf of bread and are an accident waiting to happen.
  2) She keeps the baton moving through the exchange zone rather than receive the baton from a stand-still like some of the other runners do. I've seen her gain two meters on other teams by doing this.
  3) Her tactics are impeccable. She never passes on the curves or catches unnecessary wind. I can't say this for some of the other runners on the team.

I have to agree! Sanya is great on anchor as well. I can't wait for the line up at World's since the USA women are so stacked. I have a good feeling that Beard is going to sneak in this time. Another name that I left off is Ebonie Floyd...she can take a spot as well. It appears that the USA may be stacked in this event for the years to come with athletes like: Diamond Dixon and Ashley Spencer.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

And Sanya usually gets an easy last leg because she has such a big lead given to her by Allyson.

Obviously she could do a lot more if necessary but it's not usually needed.

That's why I think it's best for Sanya to be on 1st leg or even 3rd. USA can pull another person for anchor leg and still win. I like it best when other teams chasing us down oppose to the other way around. Sanya 1st, Felix 2nd, Dee Dee 3rd, and anchor: Hastings, McCory, Beards and so on!

We also have this line up: Dee Dee 1st, Felix 2nd, Sanya 3rd, and anchor: Hastings, McCory, Beards and so on!

The one downside for putting Sanya on scratch leg is that you lose the benefit of the some of the subtle things she does better than everyone else:

• 1) She always carries the baton securely so that it can't be knocked out of her hand when she's in traffic. Some of the other runners carry the baton like a loaf of bread and are an accident waiting to happen.
  2) She keeps the baton moving through the exchange zone rather than receive the baton from a stand-still like some of the other runners do. I've seen her gain two meters on other teams by doing this.
  3) Her tactics are impeccable. She never passes on the curves or catches unnecessary wind. I can't say this for some of the other runners on the team.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

And Sanya usually gets an easy last leg because she has such a big lead given to her by Allyson.

Obviously she could do a lot more if necessary but it's not usually needed.

The only time that Sanya has ever cruised on anchor is in 2007 when she admitted afterwards that she was still uncertain about her medical condition, so she didn't want to jeopardize the gold medal for the entire team by trying to run a really fast split only to have a piano fall on her back when she hit the homestretch. However, in 2008 when, she got the baton in second, she proved that she was capable of dropping the hammer down when necessary.