USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

[gh]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Au contraire, monsieur, the 200m does, indeed, have tactics. Johnson, Gay and, to an extent, Bolt, got (get) out hard through the curve and relax(ed) as much as possible at a rapid speed coming home. Spearmon's tactic, for better or for worse, has been saving his race for the final 50m. ....

I'm willing to bet that's largely an optical illusion.

[EPelle]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Indeed, that Spearmon saves his best for the final 50m or so may appear to be tricks played on the eyes due to others slowing down faster than he is, but it does appear that he's getting out slower than the top placers and gaining in the final stages of the race (again, due to their having slowed at a quicker rate). As we're all aware, Johson's PB/WR race had a curve run faster than he'd ever managed. Bolt's first PB/WR was also run faster than a curve he'd previously managed to split. There was a certain tactic involved in running that fast over 200m. Jazzy hasn't adopted such a belief. I don't have data (splits) on Gay's PB.

[gh]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

splits are basically irrelevant; at this level, anybody who isn't running as hard as they can (given the constraints of lane draw and elemental ability to run curves well) from start to finish isn't a medalist anyway.

That's why 21.1 high schoolers can suddenly drop close to a 10th when they get to college (and discover that the 200 isn't race where you jog the curve and then kick).

[TxHottrack]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Personally, I consider Felix a professional who has tactical awareness. She displays this in her signature event, the 200m,

There are no tacitcs involved in the open 200.

and in the 4x1—she knows when to take off, where to pass and how much effort to apply on her leg. Everything is precise.

She was a little late getting out on Daegu causing Bianca Knight to run up her back. And if she's guaging how much effort to apply, she's not running all out. There shouldn't be any gauging of effort in the 4x100.

She's been running world-class sprints for a number of years. And she's not new to the 400m. Nothing to me indicates that she, as a precise relay sprinter with excellent presence of mind on the track, would freeze up if pressed on the 4x4 anchor leg in Beijing. That's my own opinion.

All either of us can do is speculate, but I'm not as confident in her as you are.

It was actually Tianna Madison at the time who ran up A Felix back. A Felix then gave the baton to Bianca Knight.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

It was actually Tianna Madison at the time who ran up A Felix back. A Felix then gave the baton to Bianca Knight.

That was in London. In Daegu, it was Knight to Felix to Myers.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Au contraire, monsieur, the 200m does, indeed, have tactics. Johnson, Gay and, to an extent, Bolt, got (get) out hard through the curve and relax(ed) as much as possible at a rapid speed coming home. Spearmon's tactic, for better or for worse, has been saving his race for the final 50m..

Gay and Johnson didn't intentionally slow down in the straight, fatigued slowed them down. Even 100-meter sprinters slow down in the last 40 meters, but that's not due to intentionally taking their foot off the pedal. I spoke with both of them at the 2007 USATF Championships, and both of them said that they made no attempt to conserve energy in the 200. I had this debate with Eldrick in 2007 a couple of days before I headed to nationals, and I posted about my conversation with them back then. I'll see if I can find it so that I can accurately quote myself. On the other hand, Ato Boldon and Spearmon have both admitted that they conserved energy in the first part of their 200 races.

Regarding Felix's degree of effort applied in her relays, for clarification I meant that she isn't blasting off from the incoming runner without the baton and/or expending all of her energy before she reaches the third leg runner.

It's not the job of the outgoing runner to worry about "blasting off from the incoming runner without the baton". When properly coached, their only concern should be leaving on time, and then it's the responsibility of the incoming runner to reach them before they leave the zone. As for "expending all of her energy" to soon, if a runner is concerned about running out of gas after only 100 meters of running, that runner isn't fit. I don't think runners of Felix's caliber have to worry about "expending all of her energy" to soon in the 4x100 relay.

[ATK]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

The idea that felix has been tha major deciding factor on the relay is largely false...The US could win every relay they have won with or without her)yes assumption)
She has obviously been a major factor, but she is only one leg. Also considering she is the 2nd leg it makes it seem a bit unfair to the other legs since she is the one who cuts in at the break and you ultimately begin to see how the stagger panned out.

[olorin]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

The idea that felix has been tha major deciding factor on the relay is largely false...The US could win every relay they have won with or without her)yes assumption)
She has obviously been a major factor, but she is only one leg. Also considering she is the 2nd leg it makes it seem a bit unfair to the other legs since she is the one who cuts in at the break and you ultimately begin to see how the stagger panned out.

The US would lose 2007 and 2008 and most likely 2011 without Felix.
She is better by (at least) 1.5 second than her replacement (probably more). With all due respect to American spirit a 48.xx lag makes your job that much easier.

[Gabriella]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

The goal isn't to run sub-3:20, the goal is to win. As I said before, in the absense of Marion Jones, Allyson Felix or Crystal Cox the USA still may have won. The time they ran is irrelevant.

Times do matter; many teams are capable of running a 3:20 but when the US are capable (and do) run 3:16, then they wipe the floor with the other teams. No other nation is going to be able to run that time. It's as gh says; Felix gets the baton around 1st place (not always....but it's either 1st or close to first) & then it's over. Who else can run a 48 leg?

In the absence of Marion Jones they wouldnt have been DQed :P but seriously, it is aknowledged that Jones 3rd leg transformed the race. Without her & who knows, but I'd wager Fenton, Privalova & co would have run the US down.

I did a quick sort of split times from the majors since 2005, looking at anything below 49.5, which conveniently comes to just over 20 runs (21):

2007 Felix 48.01 (2)
2012 Felix 48.2 (2)
2009 SRR 48.43 (4)
2008 Felix 48.55 (2)
2007 Sanders 48.70 (4)
2009 Felix 48.75 (2)
2007 N. William-Mills 48.89 (4)
2007 SRR 48.91 (4)
2008 SRR 48.93 (4)
2012 SRR 49.1 (4)
2008 Litvinova & Firova 49.2 (2, 3)
2011 S. Williams & Kapachinskaya 49.22 (4, 4)
2011 SRR 49.3 (1)
2008 S. Lloyd 49.32 (2)
2011 Felix 49.4 (2) & Antyukh 2007 (4) Antyukh 2005 (2)
2004 Antyukh 49.43 (4)
2012 N.Williams-Mills 49.46 (4)

Between them Felix & SRR have nearly half the times with 10. Felix has 4 of the top 6 times, her other leg being understandably further down from Daegu, where she had a heavy programme.
The next fastest 2nd legs are from Litvinova & Lloyd in 2008 with a 49.2 & 49.3, but they were still 0.7+ slower than Felix. There has been no other consistently run fast second legs capable of challenging Felix. So while SRR has absolutely been a big factor in US running fast times & winning, it's usually all over by the time it gets to her.

NB Antyukh is the next best performer in terms of number of runs, with 3 times in the top 21 but her limit is 49.4(which she has run at European level meetings many times too). She is the stalwart of the Russian team & the most reliable, but which leg would be her most effective? Where is 49.16 PB runner Krivoshapka in the lists or 49.28 runner Guschina?

[EPelle]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

I don't think runners of Felix's caliber have to worry about ...

Now we're on the same page. I don't think someone of Felix's calibre had to worry about ... Russians on her tail in Beijing. Felix is a pedigree. She's a professional. An accomplished sprinter. Accomplished relay runner. Accomplished teammate. The list can go on, but why exceed the character limit?

Regarding slowing down the final 20m or 40m, yes, there are laws for things like that. They're called physics. Wasn't ignoring them. These guys attempted to relax as much as possible (hold form) coming down the straight.

What those aforementioned athletes did do was to employ a certain tactic. That tactic was to run their asses off on the turn. Anyone brave enough to go with them would suffer. Badly. Hurt as much or more than the ones employing the tactics were for having blazed the curve, too. Knowing they could run ferociously around the curve must have been something for which they trained. A tactic they wouldn't just employ in a championship setting without knowing whether or not it would work.

Maybe the correct word would have been strategy.

In any case, my point was (and remains) that Allyson Felix, an accomplished 200m sprinter of high calibre, does employ a certain tactic in her race. She's going to run according to how she's trained. She's trained to win; physically as well as psychologically.

The gold in Beijing was still USA's. Because Felix is now (and was then) an athlete of high calibre. A professional with excellent awareness and who possesses great tactics. Nothing more. Nothing less. If you are less of a believer in that, that's OK. I'm not here to convince you otherwise, rather to state why I wouldn't bet against her had she had that opportunity to anchor the team five seasons back. Sure was a long while ago. Fortunately, our beliefs don't change that 2008 outcome.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

The US would lose 2007 and 2008 and most likely 2011 without Felix.
She is better by (at least) 1.5 second than her replacement (probably more).

1.5 seconds? :roll: Hyperbole Alert! :!:

[jazzcyclist]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

I did a quick sort of split times from the majors since 2005, looking at anything below 49.5, which conveniently comes to just over 20 runs (21):

2007 Felix 48.01 (2)
2012 Felix 48.2 (2)
2009 SRR 48.43 (4)
2008 Felix 48.55 (2)
2007 Sanders 48.70 (4)
2009 Felix 48.75 (2)
2007 N. William-Mills 48.89 (4)
2007 SRR 48.91 (4)
2008 SRR 48.93 (4)
2012 SRR 49.1 (4)
2008 Litvinova & Firova 49.2 (2, 3)
2011 S. Williams & Kapachinskaya 49.22 (4, 4)
2011 SRR 49.3 (1)
2008 S. Lloyd 49.32 (2)
2011 Felix 49.4 (2) & Antyukh 2007 (4) Antyukh 2005 (2)
2004 Antyukh 49.43 (4)
2012 N.Williams-Mills 49.46 (4)

I appreciate you taking the time to compile this data. However, I would list Sanya's 49.3 from 2011 as the third best performance since it was a scratch leg, and the rule of thumb is a one-second differential between scratch legs and the other legs.

[26mi235]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

Also, the anchor legs can be slower for the winning team when the gap is big because the runner will not push as hard the last bit. In fact, other placers may do the same within the gap (too far behind to catch up but with a comfortable margin ahead of the next team).

[olorin]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

The US would lose 2007 and 2008 and most likely 2011 without Felix.
She is better by (at least) 1.5 second than her replacement (probably more).

1.5 seconds? :roll: Hyperbole Alert! :!:

Being so smart maybe you can tell me which American 400m runner can have a split of sub 50 that is NOT already include in the original team during these years.
To help you a little bit - during 2007, 2008, 2009 only Felix and SRR ran below 50. The best lag between 2007 - 2012 by anyone other than SRR & FELIX is 49.39 (McCorory 2012) which is still almost 1.5 second slower than Felix at her best.
I suggest before you post any more silly comments - stop to think

[olorin]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

[/quote]
I appreciate you taking the time to compile this data. However, I would list Sanya's 49.3 from 2011 as the third best performance since it was a scratch leg, and the rule of thumb is a one-second differential between scratch legs and the other legs.[/quote]

You gain roughly a second in the 4*100. In the 4*400 you gain much less. Re- my advice in the previous post