USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

[Gabriella]

Started a separate thread from the 'lock' one so we don't go off piste too much.

The US women have won the last 5 major championships 4x400m, a winning streak that goes back to 2007. Why have they become so dominant and why does it seem that the Russians, who promise so much, just cannot seem to beat them?

The simple answer is: Allyson Felix. As soon as Felix was drafted into the team, the US went from battling closely with the Russians and Jamaicans to dominating them.

Between 2000 and 2005 the USA only legitimately win gold once, in 2003, in a close battle with Russia. They lost both their Sydney and Athens golds due to doping offences and in 2005 they were DQ in the heats. So in the first five years of this century it was Jam 2, Russia 2 and USA 1. Come Osaka and Felix is drafted into the team on the second leg, and then it is all over. Only in Beijing was Felix's devastating leg negated by a good 3rd leg by Firova, but in all those other majors since 2007 it's Felix's leg that has tipped the odds in the USA's favour. Of course, SRR has been a major factor too, but I'd argue that her main contribution was 2011 with the brillaint 1st leg, while her other last legs could probably have been run similarly by other US women, with the big leads she always had.

[mump boy]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

All of this but it seems to me that all US runners raise their game in the relay. They have great team spirit and treat the relay as an important event not as something they have to do at the end of the meet. I assume this kind of attitude is engendered through schools and collegiate competition where you do everything to earn points

I don't see the same attitude from other teams and certainly not from the UK who's biggest 400m stars coach once told me "the relay doesn't matter" and it's shown in her performances until recently :x

US ran smart, in the right order, great tactics (2011 was the best i've ever seen) and they run with passion. Russia run like they've never met each other before, with ridiculous selection decisions and lacklustre performances.

Great relay running has always been about running above your individual level, using the competition and camaraderie to raise your game. US do this every time and no one else does. When on paper teams are relatively even this is what counts and until other countries can rival this competitive instinct they are going to continue losing

[eldanielfire]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

I very much agree that a combination of Felix and the us raising their game. Felix kills the race at 600m allowing the usa to always run the shortest race. The third factor is the Russian's being unable to bring their a game to championships and poor tactical races and poor order. I've also unconvinced they run their best 4 as well.

[Gabriella]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

I agree with that too; the USA raise their game more so than the Russians, who, to quote gh, often look like rabbits caught in the headlights. Russia's better runners have not been the women running low 49s at their nationals but the ones not so dominant individually, like Litvinova and Firova who both ran 49.2 legs in Beijing. Firova was their only sub 50 sec leg in Berlin in both heats and final! Antyukh, is 'reliable' with some high 49 legs, but where have the other low 49 legs been this decade? There have been none. In fact, at a major champs Krivoshapka has only run one sub 50 secs leg, a 49.8 from London! :shock: This is the woman with those super fast times individually.

Individuals within teams do raise their game and can lift the rest of the team; the Usovich sisters always ran well, Breuer was devasting in relays; Williams and Williams-Mills have both run some superb legs. When you know you have (a) strong runner(s); some athletes lift their game beyond what is expected. When the Usovich sisters were in sub 50 leg form, Khlyustova was running good 50.3 and 50.7 legs, despite having just a 51.87 PB. When Breuer was running, Rohlander had some great legs, (49.6 in Athens 97, 49.5 in Budapest 98) as did Ghosh (50.0 in Seville 99) That is what Russia doesnt do. The US women know that on that second leg they have their most reliable runner and best relay splitter this decade in Felix and that gives them confidence.

I also think the US benefit from knowing that leg is Felix. Baton exchanges in the 4x4 are not the same as the 4x1 obviously, but you still benefit from having an aknowledged order sometimes. 2nd..Felix..the USA know they're going to be in the lead at the halfway stage. That gives you confidence.

[Marlow]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

?!
Isn't the more obvious explanation that the USA has always been chin-deep in excellent 400 runners, especially when it comes to relay racing. The USA places a big premium in HS and college on it.

[mump boy]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

?!
Isn't the more obvious explanation that the USA has always been chin-deep in excellent 400 runners, especially when it comes to relay racing. The USA places a big premium in HS and college on it.

So obvious it's already been made

[batonless relay]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

?!
Isn't the more obvious explanation that the USA has always been chin-deep in excellent 400 runners, especially when it comes to relay racing. The USA places a big premium in HS and college on it.

So obvious it's already been made

So obvious that you agreed with the original poster that the primary reason was ... Alyson Felix?

[Marlow]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

So obvious that you agreed with the original poster that the primary reason was ... Alyson Felix?

Nope. As much as I like her, we will continue to excel without her.

[18.99s]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

The real question to ask is: With more than 300M population and the biggest economy in the world, why doesn't the USA dominate a dozen or more of the events?

[batonless relay]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

So obvious that you agreed with the original poster that the primary reason was ... Alyson Felix?

Nope. As much as I like her, we will continue to excel without her.

Normally when someone uses the quote function, unless they are highlighting something specific within ... we can assume that they are quoting the last poster to post, in this case that would be the poster "mump boy", not you.

[batonless relay]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

The real question to ask is: With more than 300M population and the biggest economy in the world, why doesn't the USA dominate a dozen or more of the events?

The REAL question was asked, what you are suggesting requires another thread that you're welcome to create/recreate where it can be the REAL question.

Since 2000 the USA and RUS have been essentially equal in strength at w400 and w400h - the two events whose athletes are usually conscripted to 4x4 service. The advantage the USA has is below 400m where sprinters (100, 200, 110h, LJ, TJ) usually have 400 experience. That's why it's not that unusual for a Flojo or Gwen Torrence or even an Allyson Felix to run on the 4x4 (or in the case of RUS, an Irina Privalova).

Relay legs, to me, are like comparing athletes running on different surfaces, in different climates, against different competitions; no two are the same. It has a lot to do with where and how athletes are positioned (think: NBA leads that never hold up to the next run by the opposing team). The USA would have probably won without Felix - even though in some cases RUS had the "better" individual performances coming into the races - because they're that good. But, to address another fallacy in the OP's thesis...the USA would have probably won from 2000 to 2005 as well. The occasional rogue athlete was not enough to stop the USA from winning, imo, if we're encouraged to suppose that Allyson Felix is the key. The two squads, USA and RUS are just too close in ability and it's impossible to say that a drafted sprinter or 400/400h backup couldn't replicate the split depending upon where they are placed in the order. It happens every year that some athlete runs a split that no one thought they were capable of and the USA has far many more of these athletes than anyone else.

[JumboElliott]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

The real question to ask is: With more than 300M population and the biggest economy in the world, why doesn't the USA dominate a dozen or more of the events?

Football, basketball, and baseball, and for women, soccer and volleyball.

[eldanielfire]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

The real question to ask is: With more than 300M population and the biggest economy in the world, why doesn't the USA dominate a dozen or more of the events?

Football, basketball, and baseball, and for women, soccer and volleyball.

And videogames.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

and for women, soccer and volleyball.

Since there are no pro leagues in these sports, they are weak examples IMO. The only women's sport that has much greater financial incentives than track & field is tennis.

[eldanielfire]

Re: USA w4x400 'lock' debate: Why so dominant?

and for women, soccer and volleyball.

Since there are no pro leagues in these sports, they are weak examples IMO. The only women's sport that has much greater financial incentives than track & field is tennis.

This may explain why women's Track and Field success in the USA is currently dominated by women.