¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

[odelltrclan]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

He has a slight bow in his back. It changes the angle of his hips to the ground. It slows his leg speed and he ends up a little like an over strider. It keeps his hips low. It also pulls his head back in his stance a little. It lowers his knee lift a little which drops his hands. All are related.

It shows him running with enormous strength, and prevents his power at spots. He has much more available but he's like the guy who enjoys being the strong guy, rather than the winner.

Slight changes in his hip angles, and where he puts his feet would let a lot of things fall into place. He runs like he's on tank treads. Shame really. :mrgreen:

About 4 weeks and he could take a second off his time, if he kept his head in it. He works way too hard in a race. Though he's sometimes accused of not working hard enough. He needs to learn to run a little taller. But everything he does is to lower himself.

Your assuming he could make such a change rather easily. I am more inclined to believe he could not change it in any significant way even if he wanted to.

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Yes he can make those changes quickly. If his head is in it. Or unless he has some skeletal deformity. He's in a shorter event. Its not like he's trying to hold it together for 10 K.

He really only has to hold his poop together for 250 m in an 800 to gain the advantage of a better position. He's a strong as you get. If he regressed at the 300 m he'd be the same as now, but 10 yards closer.

[cladthin]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

He has a slight bow in his back. It changes the angle of his hips to the ground. It slows his leg speed and he ends up a little like an over strider. It keeps his hips low. It also pulls his head back in his stance a little. It lowers his knee lift a little which drops his hands. All are related.

It shows him running with enormous strength, and prevents his power at spots. He has much more available but he's like the guy who enjoys being the strong guy, rather than the winner.

Slight changes in his hip angles, and where he puts his feet would let a lot of things fall into place. He runs like he's on tank treads. Shame really. :mrgreen:

About 4 weeks and he could take a second off his time, if he kept his head in it. He works way too hard in a race. Though he's sometimes accused of not working hard enough. He needs to learn to run a little taller. But everything he does is to lower himself.

Your assuming he could make such a change rather easily. I am more inclined to believe he could not change it in any significant way even if he wanted to.

In the short term I agree with you. A 29 y.o. athlete (world class or not) cannot easily change his motor behavior. In the long term it's more likely but even then difficult (old dog new tricks scenario, tough but not impossible) but If he has the opportunity to have time to execute enough quality reps to replace any undesired behavior, that's more likely for the fall. Any changes that might be needed are going to be much more easily accomplished in general prep and not mid-way to late in a comp. period. If changes are necessary for an athlete it's something that you can make them aware of to change and they can certainly focus on that but the chances of that taking place in a short period of time and with someone with his training/racing background and someone with motor behavior so deeply ingrained would be difficult, though not impossible, to pull off.

[booond]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

He has a slight bow in his back. It changes the angle of his hips to the ground. It slows his leg speed and he ends up a little like an over strider. It keeps his hips low. It also pulls his head back in his stance a little. It lowers his knee lift a little which drops his hands. All are related.

It shows him running with enormous strength, and prevents his power at spots. He has much more available but he's like the guy who enjoys being the strong guy, rather than the winner.

Slight changes in his hip angles, and where he puts his feet would let a lot of things fall into place. He runs like he's on tank treads. Shame really. :mrgreen:

About 4 weeks and he could take a second off his time, if he kept his head in it. He works way too hard in a race. Though he's sometimes accused of not working hard enough. He needs to learn to run a little taller. But everything he does is to lower himself.

Your assuming he could make such a change rather easily. I am more inclined to believe he could not change it in any significant way even if he wanted to.

In the short term I agree with you. A 29 y.o. athlete (world class or not) cannot easily change his motor behavior. In the long term it's more likely but even then difficult (old dog new tricks scenario, tough but not impossible) but If he has the opportunity to have time to execute enough quality reps to replace any undesired behavior, that's more likely for the fall. Any changes that might be needed are going to be much more easily accomplished in general prep and not mid-way to late in a comp. period. If changes are necessary for an athlete it's something that you can make them aware of to change and they can certainly focus on that but the chances of that taking place in a short period of time and with someone with his training/racing background and someone with motor behavior so deeply ingrained would be difficult, though not impossible, to pull off.

If he's going to do something as radical as this then next year would be the time. After that it's too much of a gamble. I don't see him making a big change as he's too old and dug in but he knows he needs to do something or perpetually be a second too slow when it counts.

[gh]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

my first reaction (and second and third, in fact) for a guy this far into his career is "compensation injury." As soon as he changes who he is, something in the chain from ankle to hip ain't gonna like it, and he's on the shelf.

There may well be instances of 28-year-old runners successfully revamping their running style mightily, but I doubt many.

I say leave well enough alone.

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Yep, I can see that. But its not an impossible change if he knows. I made a similar change 4 days pre the nationals in my career and ran 5/10 s faster over 400 m.

Of course idiots need not apply. You have to have to understanding about the adjustments, not just a desire to run faster.

[rsb2]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

I think Nick is doing just fine, as is. He clearly has developed his own somewhat unique running style, but this can often be a reaction to certain skeletal issues, joint angles, or other personal features which aren't so easily changeable. It's a bit confusing as to whether he is focusing on trying to run some faster 400/600's, or work on his strength with some 1500 racing.

[dustoff]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

I find it interesting he talked much about needing to develop his speed, but I've rarely (if ever) seen him listed as a contestant over 400m, but he races plenty of 1500s. I wonder why he hasn't entered more indoor 400 or even 200 races to try and bolster his speed a bit.

[odelltrclan]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Yes he can make those changes quickly. If his head is in it. Or unless he has some skeletal deformity. He's in a shorter event. Its not like he's trying to hold it together for 10 K.

He really only has to hold his poop together for 250 m in an 800 to gain the advantage of a better position. He's a strong as you get. If he regressed at the 300 m he'd be the same as now, but 10 yards closer.

I completely disagree. I happen to have [had] a running style similar to him. There likely are physiological reasons that prevent him from making the changes you think are easy. My problem is in the flexibility of the upper thigh and hip area. Every coach had their wonderful 2 cents on how to improve and correct and nothing worked. In spite of much effort in trying to increase the flexibility for years it is almost impossible to get the flexibility to change the running form to get rid of that "bow" in the back. Whatever the cause (which I believe is physiological) has taken a lifetime to get to the point he is at and would be almost impossible to get rid of now AND probably would cause injury to get rid of. The guy is a highly successful 1:42+ half-miler. One of the best this country has ever produced. His running form may not be pretty to look at, but is effective for him and should be left alone at this stage in his career.

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Yes he can make those changes quickly. If his head is in it. Or unless he has some skeletal deformity. He's in a shorter event. Its not like he's trying to hold it together for 10 K.

He really only has to hold his poop together for 250 m in an 800 to gain the advantage of a better position. He's a strong as you get. If he regressed at the 300 m he'd be the same as now, but 10 yards closer.

I completely disagree. I happen to have [had] a running style similar to him. There likely are physiological reasons that prevent him from making the changes you think are easy. My problem is in the flexibility of the upper thigh and hip area. Every coach had their wonderful 2 cents on how to improve and correct and nothing worked. In spite of much effort in trying to increase the flexibility for years it is almost impossible to get the flexibility to change the running form to get rid of that "bow" in the back. Whatever the cause (which I believe is physiological) has taken a lifetime to get to the point he is at and would be almost impossible to get rid of now AND probably would cause injury to get rid of. The guy is a highly successful 1:42+ half-miler. One of the best this country has ever produced. His running form may not be pretty to look at, but is effective for him and should be left alone at this stage in his career.

As I said, you have to be clever and determined. Unless he has some sort of back issue, he can turn it around quickly. At this stage of his career he's not a 1:42 sec 800 m runner. He's a great runner who gets left at the gate over the first 300 m. Reading your missive you seem to think that the coaches were deficient. I disagree. But perhaps they went about it the wrong way. Flexibility is not the issue. I said hip position is the key. I never mentioned flexibility.

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

I think Nick is doing just fine, as is. He clearly has developed his own somewhat unique running style, but this can often be a reaction to certain skeletal issues, joint angles, or other personal features which aren't so easily changeable. It's a bit confusing as to whether he is focusing on trying to run some faster 400/600's, or work on his strength with some 1500 racing.

The solution to his speed challenge is not training short.

[rsb2]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

The solution to his speed challenge is not training short.[/quote]

It's part of the solution, I know there are other components to consider, as always.

[Marlow]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

The solution to his speed challenge is not training short.

It's part of the solution, I know there are other components to consider, as always.[/quote]
My college coach (Peyton Jordan, you may have heard of him) said that training was very simple:

a. on one day, run 3/4 of your race distance 'several times', faster than you your race pace, with full rest between them.
b. on the next day, run 1.25 of your race distance 'a couple of times' as close to race pace as you can, with full rest between them.
c. repeat

Worked for us.

[I may have oversimplified the concept, but that was essentially what we did. My race was the 440yH and we did lots of 300s and 500s!]

[user4]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Solomon! .. here is to hoping that the US picks up a WC medal at 800m.

[TN1965]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

My college coach (Peyton Jordan, you may have heard of him) said that training was very simple:

a. on one day, run 3/4 of your race distance 'several times', faster than you your race pace, with full rest between them.
b. on the next day, run 1.25 of your race distance 'a couple of times' as close to race pace as you can, with full rest between them.
c. repeat

Worked for us.

[I may have oversimplified the concept, but that was essentially what we did. My race was the 440yH and we did lots of 300s and 500s!]

So a 10000m runner has to run 7500m faster than race pace several times, and then run 12.5km x 2 at close to race pace on the next day? :shock:

I don't think even Cam Levins could handle that! :roll: