¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

OK, so have a look at him in the London DL>

He changed his position in the first 150 and found himself closer to the front and came home at leisure for 1:43.6.

A good run with more in the tank.

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Thank you for the clarification - I agree with your most recent statement, there are a lot of individual differences that need to be factored in, which is why I am a bit surprised that you think there are changes that Nick could make within a few weeks.

Because a lot of position stuff is pure concentration. True it won't embed itself as you could perhaps do over 6 months, but he's a pretty darn good runner now.

All he really needs to do is hold his shit together for about 300m in a position that doesn't hamper his acceleration as it does now. That will gain him 5 yards. It won't take anything away from him, and will put him 5 yards closer to the front when he gets his caterpillar rolling.

You could parallel it to improving someone's start over a 100. He needs to be in a better acceleration position for about 40 -60 m then hold it for about another 180 - 200. He could work that out in a couple of sessions. Its about feeling comfort in that position as well as holding it in place. He's not a weak athlete. Any racing challenges he may have are not due to his head getting out of the game. He's mentioned that he's a 47.4 quarter miler and he'd like to be a 46 second quarter miler. He could be that guy pretty quickly. And not just by dropping his long stuff and freshening up.

From experience I can tell you that it isn't a major change with an athlete of his caliber. He could do it in a couple of weeks. And every time he was able to successfully repeat it in training or racing it would embed further.

[rsb2]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Thank you for the clarification - I agree with your most recent statement, there are a lot of individual differences that need to be factored in, which is why I am a bit surprised that you think there are changes that Nick could make within a few weeks.

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Exactly right. Position is everything. Sometimes you lose a little in one area, but the total picture has to work.

Having said that, there is no single correct position. You have understand the athlete.

[26mi235]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

In one of the Pre movies there is a scene soon after he arrives at Oregon. He is commenting that the assistant coach is giving all the workouts etc., and what is the head coach doing. At that point Pre is running by and Bowerman tells him to rotate his hips up rather than 'sitting down' (going from memory here).

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Can you clarify what you mean by "his position", Mal? And are you agreeing or disagreeing that some training aimed at improving Nick's time at distances between 300 and 600 metres could have a beneficial effect on his 800 metre possibilities?

Back further in the thread I commented that his position (at power) was not to his advantage. Someone then asked me to explain what I meant by that - similar to your question. Back further in the thread I go at it step by step. I won't copy it, its down further.

My point is that he has certain inefficiencies with his position that prevents fast acceleration, and hampers his best performance. Then the conversation became can he change at 29 years old. I say of course.

The other stuff is preparation. I am not against short and long work. I've been there and done that.

And if I was him, I'd start now. I could get him there in 4 weeks, he'd never miss race, and its not like he has any other thing to do with his time. He's a professional runner. This is all bread and butter.

[rsb2]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Can you clarify what you mean by "his position", Mal? And are you agreeing or disagreeing that some training aimed at improving Nick's time at distances between 300 and 600 metres could have a beneficial effect on his 800 metre possibilities?

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

The solution to his speed challenge is not training short.

It's part of the solution, I know there are other components to consider, as always.[/quote]

Nope.

I never said it wouldn't improve his speed. However working out is not his problem. Its his position. Training short will not change that one bit.

Problem is when all coaches have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Need speed, run faster, need stamina, run longer. Hang around long enough and you get a reputation, then more good athletes turn up to be 'helped' by you.

[TN1965]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

My college coach (Peyton Jordan, you may have heard of him) said that training was very simple:

a. on one day, run 3/4 of your race distance 'several times', faster than you your race pace, with full rest between them.
b. on the next day, run 1.25 of your race distance 'a couple of times' as close to race pace as you can, with full rest between them.
c. repeat

Worked for us.

[I may have oversimplified the concept, but that was essentially what we did. My race was the 440yH and we did lots of 300s and 500s!]

So a 10000m runner has to run 7500m faster than race pace several times, and then run 12.5km x 2 at close to race pace on the next day? :shock:

I don't think even Cam Levins could handle that! :roll:

[user4]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Solomon! .. here is to hoping that the US picks up a WC medal at 800m.

[Marlow]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

The solution to his speed challenge is not training short.

It's part of the solution, I know there are other components to consider, as always.[/quote]
My college coach (Peyton Jordan, you may have heard of him) said that training was very simple:

a. on one day, run 3/4 of your race distance 'several times', faster than you your race pace, with full rest between them.
b. on the next day, run 1.25 of your race distance 'a couple of times' as close to race pace as you can, with full rest between them.
c. repeat

Worked for us.

[I may have oversimplified the concept, but that was essentially what we did. My race was the 440yH and we did lots of 300s and 500s!]

[rsb2]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

The solution to his speed challenge is not training short.[/quote]

It's part of the solution, I know there are other components to consider, as always.

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

I think Nick is doing just fine, as is. He clearly has developed his own somewhat unique running style, but this can often be a reaction to certain skeletal issues, joint angles, or other personal features which aren't so easily changeable. It's a bit confusing as to whether he is focusing on trying to run some faster 400/600's, or work on his strength with some 1500 racing.

The solution to his speed challenge is not training short.

[mal]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Yes he can make those changes quickly. If his head is in it. Or unless he has some skeletal deformity. He's in a shorter event. Its not like he's trying to hold it together for 10 K.

He really only has to hold his poop together for 250 m in an 800 to gain the advantage of a better position. He's a strong as you get. If he regressed at the 300 m he'd be the same as now, but 10 yards closer.

I completely disagree. I happen to have [had] a running style similar to him. There likely are physiological reasons that prevent him from making the changes you think are easy. My problem is in the flexibility of the upper thigh and hip area. Every coach had their wonderful 2 cents on how to improve and correct and nothing worked. In spite of much effort in trying to increase the flexibility for years it is almost impossible to get the flexibility to change the running form to get rid of that "bow" in the back. Whatever the cause (which I believe is physiological) has taken a lifetime to get to the point he is at and would be almost impossible to get rid of now AND probably would cause injury to get rid of. The guy is a highly successful 1:42+ half-miler. One of the best this country has ever produced. His running form may not be pretty to look at, but is effective for him and should be left alone at this stage in his career.

As I said, you have to be clever and determined. Unless he has some sort of back issue, he can turn it around quickly. At this stage of his career he's not a 1:42 sec 800 m runner. He's a great runner who gets left at the gate over the first 300 m. Reading your missive you seem to think that the coaches were deficient. I disagree. But perhaps they went about it the wrong way. Flexibility is not the issue. I said hip position is the key. I never mentioned flexibility.

[odelltrclan]

Re: ¶USATF 2013 - m800: Duane Solomon 1:43.27 (WL)

Yes he can make those changes quickly. If his head is in it. Or unless he has some skeletal deformity. He's in a shorter event. Its not like he's trying to hold it together for 10 K.

He really only has to hold his poop together for 250 m in an 800 to gain the advantage of a better position. He's a strong as you get. If he regressed at the 300 m he'd be the same as now, but 10 yards closer.

I completely disagree. I happen to have [had] a running style similar to him. There likely are physiological reasons that prevent him from making the changes you think are easy. My problem is in the flexibility of the upper thigh and hip area. Every coach had their wonderful 2 cents on how to improve and correct and nothing worked. In spite of much effort in trying to increase the flexibility for years it is almost impossible to get the flexibility to change the running form to get rid of that "bow" in the back. Whatever the cause (which I believe is physiological) has taken a lifetime to get to the point he is at and would be almost impossible to get rid of now AND probably would cause injury to get rid of. The guy is a highly successful 1:42+ half-miler. One of the best this country has ever produced. His running form may not be pretty to look at, but is effective for him and should be left alone at this stage in his career.