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Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prelim)

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  • Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prelim)

    It appears that the honest effort rule caused some trouble for Leoule Degfae of Virginia Tech over the weekend. If the account linked below is accurate, it sounds like a very unfortunate call.

    http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read. ... ad=5826982

  • #2
    Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

    Originally posted by skyin' brian
    It appears that the honest effort rule caused some trouble for Leoule Degfae of Virginia Tech over the weekend. If the account linked below is accurate, it sounds like a very unfortunate call.
    http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read. ... ad=5826982
    A. Even HS doesn't have that (stupid) rule. He could have just 'tripped', fallen and not gotten up, if he wanted to circumvent the rule.
    B. Inferring intent is a fool's game, but governing bodies seem to excel at that, so there ya go!
    :evil:

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    • #3
      Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

      The NCAA Preliminary format has refined qualifying to a scrupulously fair exercise.
      Do not blame Harvard coaches. I'm sure they, and others, were offended by the cheek of showing up for the 5, AFTER blowing off the 10. The rules are concise and clear, and everyone knows the rules. Excepting the specter of injury, the biggest threat in the current NCAA advancement system demanded of college track athletes is a coach's heavy entry hand. Do not enter athletes in more than you intend. Never enter the 10k, allowing one's athlete two shots to advance, when the 5K is your real target. Cramps, collisions, stepping on the rail -- all are possibilities introduced into the equation, when one over reaches entry-wise. Gotta run both, period.
      The blame falls squarely at the feet of the Virginia Tech staff. They did not seriously enough consider the slight possibility that something could go wrong in the 10K and if he made the 10, he would still have to finish the 5.

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      • #4
        Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

        If you want to totally eliminate gaming the system with entries, you pretty much have to stop allowing doubling. As Marlow points out, the honest effort rule is completely bogus and very easy to game, if that is your intention.

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        • #5
          Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

          Originally posted by houstonian
          Do not enter athletes in more than you intend. Never enter the 10k, allowing one's athlete two shots to advance, when the 5K is your real target.
          Undoubtedly he tried to game the system and was caught by it (wanting to see what his chances were in the 10K, before the 5K). That said . . . it is a totally asinine system. If you qualify for the 5 and 10, you SHOULD be able to do exactly as he did - see where your best chances lie. He's earned that prerogative.

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          • #6
            Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

            Originally posted by Marlow
            you SHOULD be able to do exactly as he did - see where your best chances lie. He's earned that prerogative.
            Respectfully, I absolutely differ with your opinion. I think the polar opposite. NCAA qualifying is for coaches and athletes with decisive, clear plans of action. It is not a meet to sample one's readiness, at one's leisure. No one earns that privilege, in a world of elite thinker/coaches. NCAA's, and by extension its prelim rounds, is a meet defined by planning and INTENT. If you look at results, only a very few athletes use the preliminary round as flower petals in a "she loves me/ she loves me not" game, leaving to chance what others plan for. The prepared make calculated decisions in training and racing prior to "regionals". To do less is, well, indecisive at the least and lazy at the most.

            True Brown: " Ain't nobody got time fa dat!"

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            • #7
              Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

              Originally posted by houstonian
              It is not a meet to sample one's readiness, at one's leisure. No one earns that privilege, in a world of elite thinker/coaches.
              Tell that to the USATF and IAAF with the USA National Championships, Olympics and World Championships. It's allowed at all of them. At the elite NCAA level , it is NO different. You want the best athletes in whatever event(s) they feel their best chance is in.

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              • #8
                Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

                Originally posted by Marlow
                Originally posted by houstonian
                It is not a meet to sample one's readiness, at one's leisure. No one earns that privilege, in a world of elite thinker/coaches.
                Tell that to the USATF and IAAF with the USA National Championships, Olympics and World Championships. It's allowed at all of them. At the elite NCAA level , it is NO different. You want the best athletes in whatever event(s) they feel their best chance is in.
                None of them are really team meets; in that regard the NCAA meet is fundamentally different.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

                  Originally posted by Marlow
                  Tell that to the USATF and IAAF with the USA National Championships, Olympics and World Championships. It's allowed at all of them. At the elite NCAA level , it is NO different. You want the best athletes in whatever event(s) they feel their best chance is in.
                  I have told them. The IAAF and USATF and USA Championships are clown shows, replete with political correctness and an elusive sense of fairness and consistency as far as the application of even their own rules go. Poor souls, they do not even know what they want. The IAAF is the biggest enabler of all, regarding silly procedure (and lack of sound procedure). Fair to say YOU want the best athletes in whatever events. I do not. I want the rigor of decision to sharpen the competitive tension of the track meets I attend, watch and follow.
                  You are entitled to opine. I abhor this particular view of yours.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

                    If you do not plan to make an honest effort in each event you enter you are denying a spot in the race to someone who would have made an "honest effort". Entering multiple events as an "insurance policy" against failure in a first event is fine if you don't intend to blow the second one off if you succeed in the first. Of course, defining "honest effort" is difficult. At least you need to run the race, even w/o making an heroic finishing kick.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

                      Originally posted by houstonian
                      You are entitled to opine. I abhor this particular view of yours.
                      I'm not going to say I HATE your perspective; I just think it makes no sense. I want the best in every event, and however that eventuates is OK with me.

                      Originally posted by Jseven1
                      If you do not plan to make an honest effort in each event you enter you are denying a spot in the race to someone who would have made an "honest effort". Entering multiple events as an "insurance policy" against failure in a first event is fine if you don't intend to blow the second one off if you succeed in the first. Of course, defining "honest effort" is difficult. At least you need to run the race, even w/o making an heroic finishing kick.
                      ??!! Also no sense. If you EARNED the spot, it's yours to do with however you wish. Don't show up at all, if that's how you feel. The other guy didn't EARN the spot, so he gets no vote on what you do with your spot.

                      In (Florida) HS, if you qualified for the State meet in multiple events, but do not wish to compete in them all, you just walk off the track after the start. The officials don't even want you to false start your way out (which you COULD do in college also); just walk away after the start.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

                        I have always disliked the "honest effort" (whatever that is) rule.
                        To state it simply:
                        If an athlete earns a start/spot in an event, it is his to do with as he/she wishes. Perceiving intent/motive is not only impossible, it is irrelevant.
                        Just my immutable opinion,

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

                          Is there irrefutable evidence that this kid didn't give an 'honest effort' in the 10? We know his ham wasn't tweaking out. We know that he wasn't struggling to keep it together prior to his dropping? Who 'knew' these things? Dropping out of a race = a "dishonest effort"? They could discern what was going on with his hamstring? Even going to a trainer (which would have been a sensible thing to do) is not foolproof in ruling in or out of the 'honest effort' presumption/conclusion. There are innumerable athletes/races wherein one would drop / has 'dropped out'.

                          Pole vaulters should be penalized because they don't fully complete a jump? - run thru the pit hang on the pole part ways up? nahhhh. Long jumpers penalized because they run thru the pit? nahhh. Shot or discus guys penalized when they intentionally step out of the ring? nahhhh. Sprinter penalized by pulling up when they feel their hamstring 'pulling'? nahhhh. Comes down to who makes the judgement about what is or is not and 'honest effort'. Pretty abstract term - and rife with misinterpretations. Another case of officials buckling to the grunting of some coaches, whatever their motivations are. Small small small minded. A sad day for the sport.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Another Potential Unfair DQ for the File (NCAA East Prel

                            Originally posted by lonewolf
                            I have always disliked the "honest effort" (whatever that is) rule.
                            To state it simply: If an athlete earns a start/spot in an event, it is his to do with as he/she wishes. Perceiving intent/motive is not only impossible, it is irrelevant. Just my immutable opinion,
                            Zackly. You're asking an official to read the mind of the athlete and impute a motive, that may or may NOT be there. Judgement calls are inane. If one MUST be made, follow baseball's tradition: tie goes to the runner, i.e., when in doubt, give the benefit to the athlete. And MOST judgements, by definition, ARE in doubt! :evil:

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