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World Juniors: HS boys steeple record for Bailey Roth

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  • World Juniors: HS boys steeple record for Bailey Roth

    Originally posted by aaronk View Post

    ADD: I think I'm more against ALL jogging races (in championship situations) than I am against this one specific race!
    Again, it's why I think more highly of Filbert Bayi's tactics in the '74 CG than I do of Mo's double Golds in jogger's races!
    The reason for the tactics of some....such as Bayi....is it gives the athlete the best chance to win. Bayi would have been highly unlikely to win a kicker's race vs. Walker or perhaps Jipcho whereas Walker running a suicidal pace might have had him run 3:45. Athletes believe, at least in championship racing, that winning is more important than time. Some fans don't.

    The interesting thing to me, as far as your opinion is concerned, is that one of Cain's best attributes in my opinion is a very good tactical sense. It's not perfect and she nearly got herself in a bit of trouble in the WJR 3000 but she does position herself well in most cases which enables her to beat women who are her equal from a top end ability standpoint.

    That's why I loved Bailey Roth's race maybe more than I did Mary's.
    He finished 5th or so, but he broke a 35 year old HSR!!
    Roth's race was a function of what was needed to advance. Had 9:20 been needed, there's a good chance that's what would have been run. As it is, he brought down a record which was decidedly weak compared to many HSRs.
    Last edited by NotDutra5; 07-26-2014, 05:24 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Atticus View Post
    Not sure I can agree with that. It would take a sub-8:50 2-miler to break it, and if you can run that fast, why the heck would you mess with the barriers and water pit of the steeple?!
    You've just explained why it was a decidedly weak record.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Atticus View Post
      Not sure I can agree with that. It would take a sub-8:50 2-miler to break it, and if you can run that fast, why the heck would you mess with the barriers and water pit of the steeple?!
      The reason the record was soft - no criticism of Mr. Roth - is that no one runs it. There are plenty of runners capable of running that fast but because it is an odd event, which few states make accessible, you have fewer legitimate attempts at the record. Again, no criticism of Roth.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post
        You've just explained why it was a decidedly weak record.
        The whole concept of 'weak record' presupposes that it should have been broken by now. If it has not, then, by definition, it is not weak, or someone 'better' would have gone for it and done it. Tiombé Hurd's American wTJ record is 'weak' by all comparisons to world standards, but the fact that no American woman has broken it means that it is a very strong record for an American. WHY that is, is another story. The old HS Steeple record was 'so strong' it took 35 years to break.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Atticus View Post
          The whole concept of 'weak record' presupposes that it should have been broken by now. If it has not, then, by definition, it is not weak, or someone 'better' would have gone for it and done it. Tiombé Hurd's American wTJ record is 'weak' by all comparisons to world standards, but the fact that no American woman has broken it means that it is a very strong record for an American. WHY that is, is another story. The old HS Steeple record was 'so strong' it took 35 years to break.
          The idea of a "weak" record is usually in relation to other records. By your definition no record would be appear to be weak. In this case, in relation to other records, the High School steeple record is weak. It's likely because no one or very few high end 2 milers have attempted it but it doesn't change the fact that it probably should have been faster.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post
            The idea of a "weak" record is usually in relation to other records. By your definition no record would be appear to be weak. In this case, in relation to other records, the High School steeple record is weak. It's likely because no one or very few high end 2 milers have attempted it but it doesn't change the fact that it probably should have been faster.
            Did you hear what Emma Coburn said after she broke Jenny (Barringer) Simpson's AR??

            Paraphrased, she said "If Jenny decided to run a Steeple NOW (in her 3:57 shape), she'd run under nine minutes!".

            Meaning, of course, that Emma considered HER new AR relatively weak!!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Atticus View Post
              The whole concept of 'weak record' presupposes that it should have been broken by now. If it has not, then, by definition, it is not weak, or someone 'better' would have gone for it and done it.
              That may be your definition, but it is not how most track fans define it. The HS 3000 SC record lasted a long time mostly because it is not on the HS program and is run very seldom. Probably also because no one cares to bother to break it. It has not been considered a "goal" by HS distance runners.
              Cheers,
              Alan Shank
              Woodland, CA

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Alan Shank View Post
                That may be your definition, but it is not how most track fans define it. The HS 3000 SC record lasted a long time mostly because it is not on the HS program and is run very seldom. Probably also because no one cares to bother to break it. It has not been considered a "goal" by HS distance runners.
                Then I guess you'd be surprised to find out that two thousand (2000) boys ran it this year [Milesplit database].

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                  Then I guess you'd be surprised to find out that two thousand (2000) boys ran it this year [Milesplit database].
                  That number means nothing without context. 196,000 ran the 800 meters. What's surprising is you keep bringing up points which soundly defeat your argument.
                  Last edited by booond; 07-26-2014, 09:52 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by booond View Post
                    you keep bringing up points which soundly defeat your argument.
                    My only point is that a 8:48 2-mile (a time most usually equivalent to the Steeple) is a very elite time, and given that the Steeple is NOT contested at state meets (exc NY), the record was excellent!

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                    • #11
                      So the record isn't weak because nobody runs it yet if the faster guys ran it it would be a lot faster.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                        My only point is that a 8:48 2-mile (a time most usually equivalent to the Steeple) is a very elite time, and given that the Steeple is NOT contested at state meets (exc NY), the record was excellent!
                        Using your thought process, that means the steeple record is now equivalent to the 1966 high school record in the two mile - 8:48 by Rick Riley. It was an excellent record ... 48 years ago.
                        Last edited by booond; 07-26-2014, 11:02 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by booond View Post
                          Using your thought process, that means . . .
                          Ha! If you actually could use my thought process, you'd be in perfect agreement!

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                          • #14
                            World Juniors: HS boys steeple record for Bailey Roth

                            not sure how so many posts on this got sidetracked into a Mary Cain discussion.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by gh View Post
                              not sure how so many posts on this got sidetracked into a Mary Cain discussion.
                              Easy.
                              I'd commented that I wasn't 100% happy with Cain's race, as I felt she won with a time about 20 seconds SLOWER than her (current) true potential.

                              I gave as an example Roth's race, in which he finished just 5th (or 6th?) in his heat, yet broke the HSR!
                              Meaning, I was happier with Roth's result (even though he finished 5th or 6th!) than with Cain's, (where she won the race!).

                              And that's what kicked off the Roth discussion.

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